Why Kindness?

Brad Montague

Episode Summary

This week New York Times best-selling author and creator of the web series "Kid President," Brad Montague, steps into the studio to discuss his career journey, the power of vulnerability, and what it means to be the person kids need.

Episode Notes

Jaclyn speaks with New York Times best-selling author and illustrator Brad Montague about his career journey and how "stubborn optimism" has led him to believe kindness is the answer to a better world through the next generation. 

Brad Montague is a highly sought-after speaker and performer whose encouragement brings hope and humanity to a wide variety of communities - from corporate to creative to classrooms around the world. Montague is the creator of the web series Kid President, the global social good movement Socktober, the bestselling picture book The Circles All Around Us, and, most recently, the creativity-packed Fantastic Bureau of Imagination. Brad can be seen as the host of the television special The Kindness Project via The Magnolia Network on Max. He lives in Tennessee with his wife and collaborator, Kristi Montague, as well as their two children.

This podcast is one of the many ways we live out our organization's mission to educate and inspire people to choose kindness. Visit our site kindness.org and sign up to become a part of our global community which spans more than 100 countries. It's free to join and when you do you'll be the first to get access to our latest research, tools, and even episodes of this podcast. Let's build a kinder world, together. Contact us at podcast@kindness.org or on social at @kindnessorg

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Transcript available at this link. 

Episode Transcription

Brad Montague

Intro: Why kindness?

Because it makes a difference. For connection. Kindness can change lives. It's contagious. The science says you'll be glad you did. Kindness is the key to a healthier, happier world.

Jaclyn: Why kindness? While no one answer is the same, one thing is clear. Kindness is something we all know, but do we know why it matters?

I'm your host, Jaclyn Lindsay, co founder, CEO of kindness. org. And you're listening to Why Kindness?

Hi friends. Welcome to another episode of the Why Kindness podcast. This guest is the one that I think I've secretly stalked for many years as an admirer of his remarkable work and contribution to building a kinder world. And even though we ran in similar circles, we just met for the first time this year.

And it is my incredible honor to now be able to have him as a guest on our show where I get. To get into all the things about why kindness matters to him. Uh, I am about to welcome the extraordinary Brad Montague, and I'm going to read a little bit about who he is, and then we're going to get into why kindness matters to Brad.

Brad Montague is a New York Times best selling author and illustrator of books for kids and former kids, a highly sought after speaker and performer whose encouragement brings hope and humanity to a wide variety of communities from corporate to creative to classrooms around the world. Montague is the creator of the web series Kid President, the global social good movement.

It's October. Best selling picture book, The Circles All Around Us, and most recently, the creativity packed Fantastic Bureau of Imagination. Brad can be seen as the host of the television special, The Kindness Project via the Magnolia Network on Max. He lives in Tennessee with his wife and collaborator, Kristy Montague, as well as their two children.

And with that, my incredible honor. To welcome Brad to Why Kindness. Hi, Brad. Welcome.

Brad: I have been so looking forward to this. It's an honor. Feelings mutual. Not only to chat with you, but to chat or like to know that there's this community of people that care about this, that you're like tapped into. You're tapping them on the shoulder and being like, Hey, you care about kindness?

Go on, join us. You're in the club. Like, it's so good. So it's a great party to be invited to.

Jaclyn: Yeah, let's do it. Let's party. So we open it up big and wide why kindness, what would you say to that brad?

Brad: Well, it definitely beats the alternative but it's worth it. Kindness is worth it. Why kindness? Because it's our best way forward.

It's vital. We need it. It's the most generative way of being and we need each other.

Jaclyn: Love it. What is your first memory of kindness?

Brad: Yeah. You know, I'm fortunate to have had, like, I grew up in a small town on a farm. Um, so I grew up around great people. And lots of animals. So my earliest memories of kindness are, are, you know, when you ask that, I immediately went back to thinking about animals, like all these wonderful, um, you know, you see this, um, a very brutal side of, of the natural world.

And yet also when you're working with horses and pigs and cows and dogs and, uh, all, all these. I, I found, um, a kind of gentle connection, um, with animals. So that was, uh, very life giving for me and, and pointed the compass a little bit for me of how, how you could show up in the world in the same way a dog does.

Being, um, joyful and open to adventure and to companionship with the people around you. Um, then I also, you know, I think about my, um, elementary school teachers and specifically my fourth grade teacher, who's one that I, I, anytime I get to talk about her, I do because she, she was this person who saw me. I was kind of a quiet, awkward, uh, creative kid.

who, um, had lots of ideas, but didn't know quite what to do with them and lots of creativity. It didn't know quite what to do with it and scribbling on the backs of my homework. And she noticed that and didn't like get onto me or anything. She just said, Hey, you're really creative. Oh, this is really good.

Oh, wow. What else is in that head of yours? And that, like, saw me and, um, what a gift to be seen by somebody who is safe and kind and generous and, um, celebrates whatever they see. And so I will always be trying to tell her thank you again.

Jaclyn: Yeah. Yeah, we I definitely haven't had people integrate the experience of animals and I think that's very powerful to hold and consider And what we can learn from other people or other parts of life besides people So thank you for sharing that that very unique perspective.

Brad: Yeah, there's some really wonderful examples of um The kindness of animals, uh, I think a lot of times we focus on the brutal side because You know humans are brutal as well.

We're brutal animals um, but we have this capacity for kindness so that you can see and um, The way that birds will often show up for other birds or the ways in which otters hold hands ways that um, they are supportive um in their own ways, um, that's I think educational for us.

Jaclyn: Yeah, yeah, definitely can learn a lot.

I've followed, I'm an avid fan of elephants. And they also have beautiful tendencies and things that they do to love each other and support each other. Um, and women rule elephants, or the females rule, so that's Super cool to me.

Brad: Yeah, that's a smart, smart move on their part. We can, we can learn a lot from that, for sure.

Jaclyn: Um, you said being seen by your fourth grade teacher, and that's such a big theme for how I think about kindness and the idea of just seeing another human. Um, do you have any memories growing up where you didn't feel seen? Um, and what did that do, if at all, to shape your narrative of your own self?

Brad: Oh man, that's good.

Yeah. I have lots and that's, that's in a lot of ways that has shaped how I show up with my work. Um, there's a phrase that we have hung up on our studio here that I have tried to live by. It's to be who you needed when you were younger. And, uh, my wife and I, when we were starting our creative studio, we weren't quite sure everything we wanted to make, all we wanted to do, but we knew that we knew like, We want to try to be who we needed as as young people, uh, and that's somebody who, uh, could see and celebrate the weird in us and nurture the good and point us towards what's possible, um, with all of that.

And, um, I had glimpses of it, but I want generations now to have more of that. And, um, we've gone beyond that as well. Like, cause not just being who we needed when we were younger, but now also. letting that start the conversation and now actually pay attention to the young people in front of us and go, how can we be what they need now?

Like they, there's other needs they have or particular ways that each child has a need and, um, looking for that. So it's a starting place, but it's led to some really, um, powerful places, um, to be who we needed and be who they need now. I also love asking people about, like, who are the great adults in your life?

There's lots of people who maybe can point to somebody who let them down or that, that they were discouraged by or hurt by in some way, and that they can easily become a reaction to that. But I love when you ask somebody about their favorite teacher or favorite, you know, relative that really saw them.

You see their posture change and you see that, They're not reacting against something. It said they're re they want to reflect that goodness in some way. Um, or rise up to what that person saw in them. Um, I've seen that happen in places where I felt like I don't belong in this room. This is a bunch of CEOs or people that.

Like, I don't, I don't feel a connection with immediately. And then we'll begin talking about fourth grade, or their favorite teacher, and they will turn into a child again. They will reconnect to that self, that person. And it really leads to, um, a connection in a deeper way. Um, a more playful, open kind of being.

Jaclyn: I love that so much.

Um, it is often flipping the scripts on what we're accustomed to, you know, you see it everywhere, how the news cycle wants to focus on the bad and not the good and these opportunities where we can embrace the negative, but miss the positive. So I love that idea of kind of changing what we're used to reacting to.

Um, what was the first foray for you and Kristy? into thinking about how your creative studio would show up? Like, what was your first project idea?

Brad: Yeah. So, so we met at summer campus kids and, um, and I had the hugest crush on her, wanted to go on the hike with her as a date, this whole thing, but never, it never happened for me.

Um, but then we worked at campus as counselors because it meant so much to us. We reconnected there and now we've been able to be directors of the camp, the exact camp. We got married on the soccer field of the camp too. And one of the things is we started thinking about what was so meaningful to us about that experience.

Yeah, the environment was great. Being outdoors was great, but it all came back to people. And the. Ways in which they showed up for us and saw us, served us, and, uh, wanting to be that and create an experience. So we created a program that was for students, for young people, um, where we could try to recreate that in a modern setting, in a different space.

And that became the starting place of me finding that there were so many really rad kids doing incredible things, living with compassion and creativity. And, uh, I became obsessed with I want to support that. I want to tap into that frequency. It was like discovering that there was some sort of secret radio station, these messages being like blasted out, or I had been hearing, you know, Oh, there's all these challenges in the world.

Oh, there's terrible stuff. Oh, there's all. And then suddenly I'm with young people who had ideas about what they were wanting to do. And, and so we created this, you know, service learning experience for kids. And then they created a whole world of. Hey, you should do this. Hey, try this. Have you heard about this kid doing this?

We started the web series Kid President because I wanted to blast out that kind of frequency and and be part of that that kind of um bonfire of belonging and goodness

Jaclyn: Yeah, it's amazing. I love Kid President. Always have. It's such a remarkable concept and, and serious. Is it actually, I don't know, is it still going?

Brad: No, so, you know, he's, he's, uh, no longer a child. Yeah,

Jaclyn: I was like, he's probably not a kid.

Brad: Yeah, and we, uh, we had this really great honor of working with such incredible people, uh, with SoulPancake was, Uh, this group of just weirdo, creative, compassionate people who wanted to create conversations around things that matter.

And we were supported in that work and, and, um, and yeah, it was a really fun chapter in our lives. And, um, uh, Robbie, who is my younger brother in law who played the part of Kid President, um, getting to walk through that with him and learn alongside him. Um, it's a real gift.

Jaclyn: What, in working with kids, what are some of the biggest things they've taught you as an adult?

Brad: Yeah, it's constant. It's constant. It's like, I wrote this, uh, I went on this trip where I was going to interview third, fourth, and fifth graders in every state. Uh, because we did a book tour with Kid President where we were in classrooms and I was reading, you know, stories or reading things. And the whole time I'm going, I'm, I just want to hear what they have to say.

I loved Q and A time. I loved, you know, all of the, the, you know, they would go wildly off topic, you know, asking about, you know, did you know squirrels can't burp or, uh, you know, like, um, who's your favorite Pokemon, all these kinds of things. And, but yet also, there was this really wild kind of wisdom that, that they shared and this openness, this curiosity about everything that I, I wanted to be part of.

So I went, visited third, fourth, and fifth grade classrooms in all 50 states. And I asked questions, how can I be a better grownup? And they told me, and this project. Has continued where I've, I just continually trying to ask that question of kids and discover they have all sorts of ideas about, you know, the kinds of parties we should be throwing for them or the kinds of gifts.

But usually when I asked him, who's a great grownup, they'll tell me some story about somebody that showed up for them. And it's so. It's so simple. They will like, tell me, Oh, my, um, my uncle does this thing where he shows up, you know, and once a month we go, we, um, we have lunch together. I'm like, and I, you know, is there, is there a jet ski involved?

Like what? No, it's just like, we get together and they'll tell stories about people that. Showed up like consistently. And that's what the research shows too, that that's what provides grit and resilience and, and, um, the development of kids, no matter what they've been through, if they have, you know, a caring adult sees them and that they can count on that, that is present, like that's, that changes everything.

So like it, it gave me, uh, the gift of knowing that as much as I want to do really big things for my own kids and the kids in the world and around me. That, uh, really the most important thing I did today was tie my daughter's shoe and be there. You know, be, be available. And so that's a little reminder.

I'm trying to constantly let all the great grownups in the world know you're already doing it. Like it matters. Just your presence changes it. Keep showing up. Yeah.

Jaclyn: What? What? I'm curious what some of the responses were to children being asked how we could be a better grown up. I love that question.

Um, so anything that stuck with you that, like, really shocked you.

Brad: Yeah, that mean it was almost like they were just waiting for some because They don't want to just complain about things constantly. Um, they, they were like, oh, I got, I got things to tell you. How about you do this more? How about you yell less?

How about you don't do that? Um, and when they described, or like I would have younger kids draw adults, and um, they would draw them as really big and boring, like having phones, or like just being like kind of, they looked evil. And they're trying, part of that's, they're trying to be silly, like they want to like, they think it's gonna, you know, they want to be playful and kind of make me uncomfortable in some way, so they'll draw like monstery kind of looking things.

And when they start talking about. What would be a great grownup or who, what kind of grownup they want to be? Um, it really starts to turn the conversation towards like somebody who is, they don't talk about like superhero type, like, you know, I'm gonna, it's very, I'm gonna do this for the people around me and I'm going to be here for this person.

We're going to, I'm going to. I'm going to be the kind of grownup I want to see. And that gives me a whole lot of hope. And I, I think that's part of why I'm a stubborn optimist is because I'm aware of the many challenges facing us as people. I'm also aware that there are kids and there are people who are childlike who care for children and who are showing up, um, and I, I think that that collective good is more powerful than any challenge we might face.

Jaclyn: Is there something when you hold those, that tension, cause I think that's very real and we all need to be reminded of that. So is there something. When you think of like fear or concern about what's ahead, that you then remain hopeful, that hopeful. That, um, stubborn optimism reminds you of what's possible to overcome that.

Like, what does that actually look like?

Brad: Yeah, I mean, it's really, it's that it's, it's attention. Like, um, Wendell Berry is a poet that is from Kentucky. It's also a farmer. And so I love everything he writes. And he said something once, uh, be joyful though you've considered all the facts. Like it's this sort of rebellious spirit that, yeah, I've seen the Excel spreadsheets.

I've read the articles. I've seen the research, but I also feel my heart beat. I've looked at this, put my neighbor in the eyes. I've seen what's possible when we show up for each other. And that's part of why I resonate so much with your work because when you say the word kindness Many people will think soft or they will think, um, oh yeah, of course that's sweet.

Um, and yet you have this depth of research and, uh, ability of seeing the impact that can have, and that it's actually this very not soft thing. It is rebellious and that it shows up in the face of everything and goes. No, there's a different way, but there's a better way for us to be to see the nobility in the people around us Even though there's a mess um to see the hope even though Um, it's blurry right now.

Um, Exactly. It's this. Um very generative, imaginative way of seeing reality and creating something better. Um, and we will use words sometimes around kindness, like, Oh, we got to kill him with kindness, like kill him with kindness. And I get that phrase, but also like kindness is tough. I agree that, but kindness doesn't kill things.

It transforms them. And that's what the power is, it, um, sees what is. and goes, yeah, that's not the way it's supposed to be. Um, I'm going to flip it and it transforms it. So that's what gives me hope is that I've seen kindness change rooms, right. And places it could change, change everything.

Jaclyn: Yeah, it's definitely the reminder of why we wake up every day to do this.

Cause it's hard. You know, I think one of the things as a creative, I'm hope you can appreciate as we said, from day one, part of what we want to do is rebrand kindness. And it's the idea of. Why did it get a bad rap as this soft, weak, fluffy, feminine thing when on the contrary, it's transformative and it takes courage and it can be so difficult.

I think about forgiveness. It's it can be so hard to forgive. It's one of the greatest acts of kindness is to So it's complex and it's not easy, um, all the time. So I love the reframing and reminding people of the bigness of it. Um, and it's hard.

Brad: Absolutely. Yeah. My friend, um, Brandon Harvey does this project where he's, um, sharing good news with like this good newspaper.

It's this really cool project of helping people see, you know, One of the things he talks about the importance of stories that, um, aren't just feel good, but that are real good. And that idea is, is, it speaks to this, this, you know, um, we might think of, oh, that's so kind as, Oh, that feels good, but there's something when you tell the story of something real good, it moves us deeply.

Like, Roger Ebert one time was asked, like the great film critic, was asked, you know, about what makes movies, he called them, you know, empathy machines, and what makes them make people cry. And he said that, you know, people think that what makes people cry in a story or a movie is something sad, but actually what moves people to tears is goodness.

So when we see somebody sacrifice something for the good of other people, when we see somebody stand up for what's right in the midst of, when we see this kind of bold kindness. It moves us so much. It speaks like, Oh, that's right. This ache inside us that longs for that's the way it's supposed to. That's what we need.

Yeah. That's good.

Jaclyn: Yeah, that is real good. I love that. Feel good to real good. Um, very cool. Thank you for sharing that. Um, with your life as a dad, you know, so you, you and Kristy began this work pre kids. Is that right? As far as Yeah, absolutely.

Brad: And then you throw kids in and it becomes a, you know, we've been snowed in with kids for the past week and a half, and productivity took a dip. Mm.

Jaclyn: Mm hmm. Yeah. Snowed in. Wait, where, you're in Tennessee?

Brad: Yes, yes. It's very rare we get a good snow, and so everybody flips out, oh no. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, so we've, we've been at home with kids and, um, It, it, uh, it is a gift to be with them and yet a challenge to do your work.

Jaclyn: Yeah. How old are they?

Brad: Ten and eight.

Jaclyn: Ten and eight. And so, now as a dad, what, how, if at all, has like your understanding of kindness Changed seeing how, you know, you were doing it through kids that weren't yours, but has there been a shift now that you're home every day with these little people that you created?

Um, what has that journey been like seeing kindness through the lens of your children?

Brad: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. You know, there's this thing, you're, everybody's an expert on parenting until they become one. It's, it's, it flips everything on its head. And, and, um, and yet I've gotten a front row seat at what it looks like to see a human being discover and try out Different ways of being a human being and you see them do things that are childish Or do things respond with greed and jealousy and you see that side and you're like, oh buddy.

No Then you see them be genuinely happy, childlike, and you go, Oh, I could learn from you. Like you're a master at this being a person thing. And I'm not here to teach you. I'm here to just nurture that that already exists. And I want to be like you, uh, when I see the way they. Um, handle, um, challenges or, you know, like I had a moment over, uh, the holiday break where we were, we had spent a whole afternoon putting together a Lego set for my daughter and doing it with her.

She was very proud of it and I was going to move it and, uh, move it from the table to her room and I dropped it and it shattered. And I knew she was, it was her first one to put together and her, and I just. I was on the floor and I was just, I had had it and this little hand came up and just was like, Oh daddy.

It's okay, we can fix it. I just, I just melted at the goodness, at just the kindness of that, that I had done something that I know devastated her, and yet she wanted to make sure I knew first and foremost, hey, it's okay. Oh my gosh. You know, I, I think they, the best of who we are when we're happy, healthy children is always in us.

And so I want to see that nurtured in my children. I want to see that nurtured in myself. And that's what I want to try to point people towards. I work. In a space that is considered children's media, you know, right creating videos that are animated and um writing for Projects that are directed at children and I work in picture books though are my favorite space to inhabit because They're deceptively simple.

They seem to be for kids, but generally like my books are designed to be read, you know, an adult to read with the child or also the child could read on their own. But I'm hoping that there's a four year old and maybe a fourth grader and maybe a 40 year old parent, maybe a 94 year old grandparent somehow in earshot and that it all speaks to them and that child of who they are.

And that's that, it wakes that up in some way. I think the world needs less childish and more childlike.

Jaclyn: Yeah, that's beautiful. I feel like, as a mom personally, I'm a, to a three and a five year old, I feel constantly humbled by like how much. They remind you of like what you're worrying about and all the things that you feel consumed by and how Irrelevant so much of it is and they just get it

Brad: little mirrors in the worst and best way

Jaclyn: Yeah, and and and the the humbling side of being reminded of what really matters you know and like what they're most interested in and and so I do think there's So much wisdom to glean from them.

Um, they keep you on your toes.

Brad: Yes. Yes. It's this like, um, brutal honesty that is relentless and, um, and yet needed.

Jaclyn: Yep. When you talk about the transformative power of kindness, because you've touched so many lives, probably lives, you'll never even fully know just how far reaching all your work has gone and the impact it's had.

Um, but do you have a story or two you could share with us of like, Being front and center of seeing the transformative power of kindness. May it be from the CEO side when you were in that kind of space in that room, um, to being in the classroom. I'm just curious what, because you've made a career of this, but like, wow, what has been the thing that's inspired you and reminded you of just how big the power of kindness is?

Brad: Jac. These are good. You're good. Taking me back. There's so many, so many. Like, because I just flashing with faces and moments with people and that gift of being with them and being part of something that Mm-Hmm. changes them. I think one story I, I always go back to is, is um, you know, we're doing this camp with all these kids, uh, that was.

Kids who had started projects of their own and were doing things. And we had this block of time where we weren't quite sure what to do with all the kids. What are we gonna fill this time with? And um, one of the kids was like, well, let's, we should do something for somebody in this town. And we're in a small town.

And I was like, well, there is this woman that works at the post office and, um, she's Pretty incredible. Like she knows everybody's name. She always takes it like it's a long line, but nobody's mad They're just like oh, it's Dana. We get to talk to her and it's like what if we went and saw her or what? Have we you know, we all threw a parade and we turned it into a parade And so like we put this ragtag parade together to go like just show up and surprise her And, um, and it was this really beautiful moment of seeing her, like we put a sash on her and this crown and her, everybody, she's walking through and kids are cheering for her and she starts like soaking it up, you know.

And, um, we shared the story of this parade and saw that there were other people that started throwing parades for postal workers, or janitors, or somebody that worked in their school, or the librarian. Like, all these people started throwing parades, and we started seeing, like, As they throw these parades and they share the story about them with me, I'm seeing all these people share, Oh, I've always wanted to celebrate her.

Oh, she always did this for me. And you just see this flood of people go, I've never got to tell them. And it became this. Moment. And for me, it was this massive reminder that that maybe the best kinds of stories are the ones that you invite people into and creates more stories or the best parades are the ones that inspire more parades.

Right. And I think it's. sparked this endless parade of people celebrating people around them. The year after that, um, she surprised me and threw a parade for me and made this giant key. It was like, you get the key to the city and put a top hat on. It was, absurd and so ridiculous and yet it all comes full circle.

That was one of many moments that that's been formative in helping me see that, uh, we all just kind of are waiting for little taps on the shoulder to go, Hey, let's do something really cool for somebody else. Let's see where it goes. And it always goes further. And we could have ever imagined.

Jaclyn: I love that.

I have goosebumps. Thank you for sharing that. That's super cool.

Brad: You deserve a parade one day. Maybe one day I'll show up in a marching band outfit.

Jaclyn: Um, I love that. Um, I feel like The thing that reminds me of with it, I think sometimes what we've seen with our work at kindness. org is that often people almost feel like they need permission to do something and it takes that one moment of you choosing to do it, but the ripple effect, it is contagious and it's real and it is something that How far wide and reaching it.

It can go global, you know, people around the world saying yes to a parade for somebody. Um, and sometimes it's just that one domino to be pushed that allows everyone to be like. I can do something radical and cool, like a, like a parade, you know, to celebrate someone. Um, and I hope wherever everyone is listening that you'll think about who you can throw a parade for this week.

Brad: Yes, yes, absolutely. And, and it's, it's the thing is it's, it's, um, a kind life is an invitational life. It's just constantly inviting people into a party. That has ongoing and doesn't end and that you're always invited to and that doesn't mean it's always easy and bright and confetti filled. Sometimes the confetti is our plans and things that we hoped would go well.

Um, but it's always available and, and I, I've found too that even though we did this big flashy parade, you know, like it was colorful and there was music. Um, it wasn't. This thing that we did for attention, like this was not a thing that we designed to post on social media or designed to go viral. Like it was all about putting attention towards her.

And, and that's, that's what kindness is directing our attention towards. It's the humanity of someone else, and inevitably when we do that, it, it brightens up the room for everybody. Absolutely. Like Fred Rogers talked about that the most important things happened in the wings of a stage, not on stage, and so I think that.

That's a thing that I've tried to keep front and center in my work because there's a lot that people see but then there's all this stuff that happens in the wings and that that I have to remember that's the most important part and there's this kind of quiet kindness that turns out being the loudest part of the work.

Yes.

Jaclyn: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like the tension I've sometimes felt in like having a career built around building a kinder world is checking yourself in all the moments where you're unseen, you know, and uh, remembering, um, all the, the wings. I hadn't actually known that Fred Rogers said that. And so I'm,

Brad: um, Well, I'll say, you know, one thing too, I mean, you've got, you've put your stake in the ground and said, we're about kindness.

Like this is what we're going to do. So that also becomes a bit of a Oh no, like, like we've got to actually live this out and it sounds easy and it's not always easy. Not always easy. I can't say behind the scenes. Everybody's been so kind on your team. So in the wings, it's been very thoughtful and meaningful.

So you're doing it.

Jaclyn: Um, I've definitely probably joked about this in a podcast before, but more than once in like a heated discussion with my husband, he's like, Aren't you supposed to run kindness. org?

Brad: If I'm wearing a shirt that says anything about being kind or whatever, that's the day traffic is terrible. You're just like That's the day, you know, the coffee line is too long. That's, it's, it's, you're always going to be, okay, are you sure? You ready to live this out? Ready to challenge that buddy.

Jaclyn: Exactly. Okay, so that's actually something I'm always curious about with people who embody kindness in such big and deep ways.

When is kindness hard for you as Brad? If you're willing to be vulnerable, just curious, when is kindness difficult for you?

Brad: Yeah, yeah, I've definitely, it has become a, um, a bit of radar for me where I begin to realize if kindness is not like my first response. I must be tired or hungry. Or both. And, and I can be kind to the whole world and the hardest is to be kind to Brad and, um, to, uh, see and celebrate the good in me.

I can see and celebrate the nobility and humanity in every person, um, and be, you know, just, uh, not so kind to me. And so, uh, I have. Um, grown in the past few years of recognizing that more and more and, uh, surround myself with people that know that about me. Mm-Hmm. , you know, lift me up in, in those times. Um, but yeah, I What about you?

I mean, you, you have conversations about kindness all the time. I, I imagine you might feel some of those same things.

Jaclyn: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I do. I do feel that I've constantly had to remember the truth that if your own cup isn't full, you can't pour out to others kind of thing. Um, And filling my cup changes like season to season and moments moment and year to year because life changes.

And so I've, my intention has been trying to always check in on like, do I need, um, and And I feel this past year, my biggest learning personally was I had a lot of negative self talk happening like on autopilot. And so the filling of my cup was actually just being kind to myself with words and, uh, and how I spoke to myself in the mirror or, um, just, you know, in my own inner dialogue.

And that has been probably it's like, I've done little post its to remind myself about the truths I want to cling to kind of thing. Um, Very hard, you know, really difficult to change your inner dialogue, um, about yourself. And, and so I think that's one of the biggest things I've prioritized this past year specifically.

Brad: Thank you for asking. Well, good for you because you're, you're such a needed presence. And, and, and one of the things I've had to be brave about is letting some of the people in my life that I really respect. know that I, um, sometimes need their affirmation. I need you to remind me I'm okay. Um, I I've needed, I've tried to collect some older mentors, like people that are several steps ahead of me in years and experience.

And be very vulnerable and go, I need you to tell me you're proud of me. And, and, and, or tell me when you're disappointed and be kind about it, but help me grow,

Jaclyn: I think we put, I love, thank you for sharing that. And I think that we can put. A narrative of what will happen when, when, what, what would happen, what will they say if I tell them the truth or if I tell them I know this because you're laying yourself out there.

It can feel so risky to be vulnerable.

Brad: Oh, and I'm so, I have such a great imagination and it's terrible. That's a misuse of imagination.

Jaclyn: Yeah. And the ideas. I think generally we want to help those around us and love those around us and support those around us, but we need to know how sometimes. Um, and so it's that give take and it's that willingness to be.

Honest about what you need, um, in any relationship. And so I think for everyone listening, let's remind them, you know, what do you need today? Who do you need to tell what you need from them? Be direct, clear is kind. We like to say, I think I have to credit Renee Brown for that one. Yeah. Okay. So as you look ahead, we're heading into, you know, I don't know, this will be, um, released earlier in this year of 2024.

Um, and it feels like. a continued climate of disconnect divisiveness And I feel like anytime there's an election year everything's heightened when you look ahead and we think about that optimism Um, what'd you call it? Stubborn optimism stubborn stubborn optimism What's your encouragement for anyone listening about how to head into this year?

What are you hopeful about? What are you optimistic about? Yeah,

Brad: I um I know it's, it's interesting. Cause it seems like everybody is on edge about preparing themselves. Oh, this is going to be a hard year. Oh, this is going to be tough and there's going to be heightened emotions and all of that's true. Um, I have found this is an opportunity for us to be human and see the humanity and the people around us and, and be present in that way, looking people in the eyes, there's.

A lot we can do online that's great, and I have made a career of posting things on the internet, but the most meaningful things we can do, uh, I, I truly believe are looking our neighbors in the eyes and seeing the humanity in them, and so this should be about our shared life together, which is what politics is supposed to be, um, and, and seeing that.

Um, so my, my hope is in, in conversations that are about What we can do and be together the best of what's possible and seeing that um rally around Conversations around children and childhood and families and what we can do for the next generation That becomes a rallying point for a lot of people across a lot of different lines to go.

Well, we may disagree about this We can work, you know, we don't see eye to eye on us, but we can work shoulder to shoulder on this, uh, with children. So I I've been, and my hope is that more and more, we can find common ground to make it a dance floor, to do things together for kids. Um, and that's not all that also can be a lightning rod in some ways.

But our, our work is to find ways forward together. And so that's, that's what gives me hope. We have a project we're doing in classrooms right now. That's called ultra city. And that has been incredible where it's been students. designing what the world is going to look like when they're adults. So like in 20 years, what's the best world of tomorrow?

And it's just kind of like, you know, vintage optimism about future retrofuturism, but it's very cool to see. Uh, this prompt, which came from Buckminster Fuller, who, you know, he said, design a city in which everybody has what they need, and nobody goes without, nobody's taken advantage of, what does that look like?

And so, uh, schools have been working through this, it's been incredible, and it started from a conversation with my own kids, where they were designing this city in Roblox, like on, on the iPad and they had called it ultra city and it was going to have this really cool candy shop and all this pet store and this place where you could just go and pet dogs.

And, and I was like, Oh, what else would be there? And like, what would the hospital look like? What would a school look like? What would, you know, and seeing their brain start to like, think not just what is, but what could be, it's contagious. So like there's a school that sent me pictures just a couple weeks ago where they had a gymnasium floor full with cardboard boxes and they had designed this city and they're going, we're going to have this and just like planting seeds in our imagination that, hey, what is, is not what has to be.

Wow. That gets really exciting to me.

Jaclyn: It's amazing. Oh, I love that. Um, what does the future city look like 20 years from now?

Brad: they're designing it already. Yeah. We, you know, sure. We can have an election. Good luck with that. Have fun. Right. Grown up. But I'm talking to some second graders. Yeah. The young are at the gates.

Exactly. I don't know if you've heard that, but There's, you know, during the women's right to vote movement, there were all these speeches and there was this woman who gave a speech. It was like, okay, fine. You know what? You don't, you may not vote for women to vote, but, uh, the young are at the gates, they're going to take and make it happen.

They have wisdom and eyes to see it. So that's kind of how it feels. Like, yeah, you may be screwing things up right now, but the younger at the gates. There's going to be a really cool candy store.

Jaclyn: Oh yeah, it's coming. Oh, um, I feel like I can't believe we're coming up on time. How did this fly by? Cause you're just incredible and you have so much.

Brad: I know, it's so great to connect with such a kindred spirit, like what everything you do, just like, it's so full of joy and, and like, like rooted in this brilliance. So I, I'm just really happy that you exist, that your community exists. And, um, Yeah, I look forward to the parties we could all throw together.

Jaclyn: Yes! Back at you. Um, when we wind down, we close with, um, we haven't come up with a great name, so you tell us if you have one. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like, you know, to your point of killing with kindness, I was calling it Rapid Fire, and then it was like, I don't want to perpetuate rapid fire So but it's like quick question kindness question kindness Q& A I like it, but I'm just gonna throw a question at you and you're just gonna on the spot answer.

So Get into this. Okay Define kindness in one word

Brad: Oh One word. I like lots of words. I'm a writer. Come on. I'll say rebellious.

Jaclyn: Yes, beauty is we never get the same answer. So thank you. Um, and I know we'll never get rebellious. That was amazing. Um, if you could get everyone around the world to do a single kind act, what would it be?

Brad: To knock down their backyard fences and build a giant table in which everybody in your town gathers around and eat mashed potatoes.

Jaclyn: Mashed potatoes with gravy.

Brad: Yeah. Yeah.

Jaclyn: Yeah. Oh, that's a good one. Also haven't had that. Thank you. Um, who would you credit to or who would you say is the person that taught you kindness?

Brad: Uh, my dog, Bo. Uh, as a child, um, for sure. Um, and my grandmother, deeply kind woman.

Jaclyn: What are you reading or listening to on audio books?

Brad: Um, okay. So I'm in a season of revisiting books because I need comfort right now. Cause I just finished working on art for a book and I'm kind of like, who am I? What day is it? What are, so, um, I, I'm actually, there's a, uh, uh, a really wonderful. audiobook of Charles Portis's novel, True Grit, that is funny and wise.

I'm also rereading my favorite book right now, and it's Dominic by William Stieg. It's about a dog. It's so good. If you haven't read it, guys, he wrote lots of books for children. He wrote Shrek, the original book, all this stuff, but Dominic is close to my heart is this dog just wandering through helping people and in the end, they all come through and help them.

I'm revisiting that.

Jaclyn: Okay. Um, and what about if kindness were a song? What song would kindness be?

Brad: Oh, well, I wanted to like, think of something really like, um, Up and you can dance to it or something really cool. That's like wrestler entrance music

The song that immediately comes to mind is um, uh, I would say I was thinking the rainbow connection from the muppet movie. Oh, yeah Simply because it puts me and did as a child and does now in such a dreamy state Of like, oh, yeah, that's so possible. That's like I think When somebody does something truly kind, deeply kind, radically kind, you feel like A new door of possibilities open. So that's the song.

Jaclyn: Um, and is there any thought, final thing that you didn't get to say that you would want to be able to say?

Brad: Oh, I've said way too much. I, here's what I'll say. It's just, you know what, everybody listening to this, you are. Incredible. You're just a stinking miracle, a gem, all of you. So you know what, let's just go live like it.

Okay. And, and, um, I'm, I'm excited to see what happens.

Jaclyn: You're here. Okay. Cheers. Um, we end on choosing kindness together. So the final thing we do is we ask you to think about who's that person that you need to let know. You're grateful for them. You love them. They matter to you. Um, we have some people call the person live and like do it in real time.

If you're comfortable with that, you can tell us who it is and then set the intention that you're going to do it today. Um, so whatever your comfort level is, this is, um,

Brad: so people actually call people. You had people actually call?

Jaclyn: Yeah, so we do it. Our sponsor for the podcast is Verizon. And so it's called a call for kindness campaign that we've worked with them on.

And yeah, people have called on the podcast and like, talk to the, yeah. So if you want to do it, let's do it.

Brad: I want to call. Okay. Somebody you need to, everybody needs to know who this person is. She rules. Okay. Her name is Corianne LaMelle. Okay. And she's had She's had a rough year.

Like, her child has been sick, or she's lost a loved one. She, and she runs this children's theater in Nashville, and when I say children's theater, you have like this image in your head of, Oh, that's sweet. This is like the best theater you could ever imagine, and it happens to have children in it. Like, it is unreal.

She gives kids voice. She, anyway, she deserves to have all the flowers and be cheered, so. Can I call her now? Let's do it. Let's try it. What do we do?

Jaclyn: Okay. You just let her know I'm on a podcast and I want you to know this. Our work is all about letting people know that, Hey, we're humans. We matter to each other.

Listen to these people.

Brad: This is so good. This is great. Okay, I hear the ringing.

Corianne: Hello!

This is a Cori Ann LaMelle fan club. It's Brad here. I need to let you know that you are, you are actually, um, not just on speakerphone, but you're on a podcast right now.

Corianne: I apologize. I would have answered the phone in a different manner, but that's good.

Brad: I figured it was safe. You're a theater person, so you'd be okay with this.

Um, I, okay, Corey, here's what's up. I'm on a podcast right now with this really rad person, um, and, and it's the kindness. org. And I, it's just a challenge to choose kindness, let somebody know they're changing the world. And that's what I wanted to call you right now and tell you what an incredible gift you are to so many kids.

And I've been thinking about that all year. And yeah, also I've been thinking about the fact you've had so many challenges. And yet you still show up for so many kids, and you give voice to young people, you build community and a bonfire of belonging for people who wouldn't feel it otherwise, and it's contagious, it's catching on, and I just think you're super rad, and I know you come together and bring kids together to, like, create art, but The greatest art is your life, the way you and your husband and kids live it, and the community you build.

The world needs to know about the theater bug and know about you. Thanks for being you, Cory. There is no one sweeter. Thank you so much. That's so encouraging and amazing and I feel so loved right now. Thank you. Well, you should. You make a lot of, that, that feeling you have, a whole bunch of young people have it.

Corianne: Well, I mean, they give it right back to us. I will tell you that much. We're in rehearsals with them right now for these, like, incredible original plays that they've written. And every single day, I'm like, oh my god, this is my job. Like, I get to actually go and be supported in supporting them. I mean, I, I cannot complain.

It's such a beautiful space to be in every single day, and these kids are doing such important work, and if we can be even like a little teeny tiny platform somewhere, you know, in the back of a building in, Nashville Tennessee, then I'm glad to do it.

Brad: And you are doing it. And when I, like, everybody needs to know when I say, Oh, she listens to kids.

I'm not just saying, Oh, she's like, puts up with them and goes, Oh, that's a cute idea. No, like literally listens to who they are. in their hearts, writes, plays with them alongside them, takes things they've written and brings it to life. Like put some of the most professional choreographers and songwriters around them and goes, Hey, here's your friends.

They'll help you.

Jaclyn: Thank you, Corianne. Thank you.

Brad: Jaclyn just said thank you for your work.

Corianne: Well, thank you for just being our biggest cheerleader from day one. I don't know if y'all know this, but like Brad came to see something and I didn't know, you know, the work he had done. Well, I was very familiar with the work he had done.

I didn't know he was the one responsible for it. And then he called me and was like, what can I do to be supportive? I will like, take out your trash or mop your floors. I think you literally said that at one point. Like, I just want to be around this and I want to support it. And she has like, 100 percent lived up to exactly that.

From that first phone call. And that was like right before the pandemic when all of us were like, what is education? What is art? Does theater exist anymore? And, you know, kind of was a life raft for us. Through 2020 and 2021. So very, very grateful for this man on this phone.

Brad: Well, you're think you're not supposed to say kind of things about me. You broke the rules. This is just about you.

You know how this works. We do something at the Theatre Bug that we call Love Circle where, uh, at the end of every rehearsal day everybody shares love for themselves and love for someone else and so like, you can't, you know, you gotta do both.

Jaclyn: Yes, you're here.

Brad: Love Circle.

Corianne: This is podcast Love Circle.

Jaclyn: Yay!

Brad: Well, uh, Jaclyn, this is Corey.

Jaclyn: Hi, Corey. Thank you. So grateful for your work and contribution. Through theater bug and what you're doing to change kids lives.

Corianne: Well, thank you so much for the acknowledgement and the sweetness and i'm super pumped to check out this podcast anything that's you know revolving around putting more kindness into the universe is something I am like a thousand and ten percent behind right now Well, thank you, and I hope you'll have the best time today.

Brad: Thank you. Bye. Thank you.

Jaclyn: Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of the Why Kindness podcast, sponsored by our friends at Verizon. To learn more about everything you heard today from our wonderful guests, definitely check out our show notes. We hope you're leaving this episode inspired and reminded that every kind act truly does make a difference.

We'd love to hear how you're choosing kindness in your day to day. We write back to every email, so let us know what you think. And please leave a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify. This podcast is one of the many ways we live out our organization's mission to educate and inspire people to choose kindness.

Visit our site today at kindness. org and sign up to become a part of our global community, which spans more than a hundred countries. It's free to join, and one of the many benefits includes being the first to get access to our latest research tools and even episodes of this podcast. We are so excited to get you involved in building a kinder world.

Please tune in next time as we continue to explore this big question. Why kindness? Transcribed by https: otter. ai