In this episode, Jaclyn sits down with the talented composer, lyricist, and author David Friedman to explore the transformative power of kindness, his remarkable career in show business, and the profound influence that kindness has had on both his life and work.
Intro: [00:00:00] Why kindness?
Because it makes a difference. For connection. Kindness can change lives. It's contagious. The science says you'll be glad you did. Kindness is The key to a healthier, happier world.
Jaclyn: Why kindness? While no one answer is the same, one thing is clear. Kindness is something we all know, but do we know why it matters?
I'm your host, Jaclyn Lindsay, co founder, CEO of kindness. org. And you're listening to Why Kindness.
With multi platinum recordings, Broadway shows, Disney animated films, television scores, books, and a teaching and lecturing career that spans the nation. Our guest today, David Friedman is truly someone who has made a major mark in all areas of show business. and the Human Potential Movement. David has written songs for everyone from Disney to Diana Ross.
He's conducted and vocal arranged six musicals on [00:01:00] Broadway, as well as numerous Disney animated films. He also won the 2018 Drama Desk, Outer Critics Circle, and Off Broadway League Awards for his hit New York musical, Desperate Measures. As an author, David has written a groundbreaking book called The Thought Exchange, overcoming our resistance to living a sensational life.
As well as his other book, We Can Be Kind, Healing Our World, One Kindness at a Time. Very resonant for what we're going to talk about today. Let's get into things with David Friedman. David, I am so excited for this conversation and we're going to open it up with why kindness?
David: Yes. Well, to me, kindness is something, it's not only something we do, it's something we are, and it's an acceptance, it's an empathy, it's looking at ourselves and others, and we always have a choice whether to be kind, uh, and I wrote a whole book about that, we can be kind, and so [00:02:00] at every moment we can decide, am I going to handle this with kindness or with difficulty, but this is the thing, kindness is not Oh God, I've got to be kind.
It's such a pain in the neck. I have to be nice. It's not nice. It's It's a way of being that actually I have found Always gives the person who is being kind as much or more then the person they're giving it to. Because when you create an atmosphere of kindness, when you are kind, you are now in a world that is kind.
So if you were to need kindness, you know that it's possible for someone else to easily give it to you. Why? Because you're a human being, they're a human being, and so it exists there. So you can come to count on it, rely on it. You begin to see the world. in, in the context of that kindness is possible and how we see the world [00:03:00] is how we experience the world because we only experience the world inside ourselves.
I'm experiencing you right now in terms of my thoughts and sensations. I don't even know if you're there, but I'm experiencing you in here.
Jaclyn: So. I love that. I love this question because it always illuminates a different perspective and yet reinforces just how powerful and potent kindness says. And I think you're one of the only people who have ever talked about it as a choice, which is absolutely the theme and mission of how kindness.
org thinks about the work of kindness. Every human has the capacity. But we have to still choose it. We have to be willing to say yes to it. We are deciding. Hello. Who's our friend? We have a friend on the screen.
David: Oh, we have, we have actually Cooper and Gwendolyn are here now, there'll be two more.
Jaclyn: Hi. Hey, Cooper, Gwendolyn.
Oh my goodness. I love it. Um, and so tell me what's your [00:04:00] earliest experience with kindness? Where did you learn like mature wisdom? What you just said, but Yeah. How did it start for you?
David: It's funny. I recently was up at Canyon Ranch and they had this course about what are your strengths. And you took all these questions, these tests, and you know, rate from one to five, how you feel about this.
And they list your 40 strengths in order. And kindness was my first one. Uh, and I'm, I'm not even sure for me, it comes naturally, you know, I feel, uh, I was treated with kindness by. My family also, I'm in show business and, uh, there were many people who were kind to me, uh, to help me get ahead. And I always say, when someone comes to me for assistance, uh, I, I, and people say, oh, but you're being so nice to them.
You're busy. Why do you do this? And I said, because [00:05:00] people did it for me. Mm-hmm . And so I always say, I don't care who you approach, if they're nasty to you, uh, that that's there. problem. I remember I did 10 years on the Today Show. I wrote 100 songs for the Today Show with Kathy Lee Gifford for a segment called Everyone Has a Story.
And Kathy Lee said to me once, she said, you know, I know I'm no great shake. So I'm no better than anybody else. But if me stopping to sign an autograph or do something gracious or do whatever makes a person's day. Why not? And I think we have to appreciate, I mean, I, I started with this, that kindness is not a burden.
It's a gift for the giver. And, and so anytime we can do that, it, it empowers us. It empowers, like for instance, When we were getting on this call today, I had issues around getting on and I could consciously choose to be what's going on here. But, but, or I [00:06:00] could choose to go, this is an opportunity. It'll work out.
It'll be fine. And so then I get to live in that world, as opposed to a world of challenge and difficulty. So, I don't know when my first experience was, but um, throughout my life, I've had many times when people have been kind to me. It seems natural. It's really is. Why not?
Jaclyn: Why not? Why not?
David: Yeah.
Jaclyn: You have such an illustrious career.
You are just, you've done so many amazing things. Your bio is just incredibly impressive. So I want to know kindness and show business. I feel often like you would hear those things and not think that they could go hand in hand. So it sounds like you bring kindness. into all the work you do. Do you think it's a fair assessment that kindness and showbiz don't go hand to hand?
Is that something the outside person is getting wrong?
David: I [00:07:00] think, I'll give you an example. I did the movie Beauty and the Beast. I conducted it and folklore arranged it. And I worked with Angela Lansbury, who's one of the kindest people I know. Now I have a friend who was doing Sweeney Todd with Angela. And you know, you slide down this Uh, shoot when you get killed in it.
And so she slid down the chute and she's sitting in the dark on the bottom, and as she came down, she landed wrong and broke. Broke, broke both her ankles and Angela Lansbury is sitting there and she turns to her quietly. She saw what happened and said, dig your nails into me if you have to. You know, that kind of empathy, uh, show business.
It certainly can be cutthroat, but show business is very collaborative and people are, it's both. I mean, I think when people are insecure, they're not kind. Uh, I, uh. I remember I was doing a big benefit and, [00:08:00] uh, for our unity church, but it was in a thousand seat theater and Lucy Arnaz and I were the finality.
And we did this. Numbers and everybody was standing and cheering and yeah, and you know applauding and it was over and I went off the stage and there was a group of my friends standing there and I said, who needs a ride to the train? And somebody was like, you just came off the stage. How could you? And I said, that was fun.
And, but now you're my friend. And so, you know, you see examples of kindness, you know, yeah. Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift gave these gigantic bonuses to her staff, you know, 100, 000 for each truck driver, a million for each assistant, every city she goes into, she leaves a huge donation for the food bank there, uh, you know, people who understand their power, uh, to, uh, so I think, and You know, often when you [00:09:00] meet certain show business people you find they're so regular people and they're wonderful.
I once brought, again, Kathy Lee to my friend's basement studio to do a recording. And his mother, who usually walked around in curlers, you know, comes down like in an evening gown. You know, because Kathy Lee's there and she wants to meet her. And She says, Kathy Lee, could you do me a favor? Uh, I, I hate to bother you, but my best friend is upstairs and she would love to meet you.
And Kathy turned to my friend who is the engineer and said, are we in a hurry? And he said, no. And she says, you have any tea? And she just went up to the kitchen and for 20 minutes sat and talked to them. And she, they were friends when I did the movie, Aladdin, Robin Williams, he was in the booth for an hour, just pouring it out, pouring it out.
So creative and active. He gets a five minute break. The bass player comes over to him and says, [00:10:00] Mr. Williams, I'm so sorry to bother you, but my wife is your biggest fan and she's in the hospital. Could you sign this? And Robin said, what's her number? And he just picked up the phone and spent five minutes on the phone with her, you know, to understand and show business.
There is the. Intra stuff, which I feel is a combination of kind and cutthroat. Uh, but as a famous person, as a celebrity, as whatever, you have the power to do a little gesture that people will remember for the rest of their lives. And that makes you more powerful. It's, I never find it exhausting to be kind.
Jaclyn: Yes, I love this. So what about unkindness for you? Have you, do you have like a memory of when it was hard for you to choose kindness, like forgiveness or anything you've been through that it really took a lot out of you?
David: Oh, absolutely. [00:11:00] Uh, yes, I've had people treat me very badly and I've had, I mean, I would say years ago, my partner broke up with me in one day and I couldn't be in the same room with him for two years.
And I, but again, I was, I gradually began to understand. Holding resentment is like taking poison and hoping the other person dies. It's, it's not helping me, so I gradually had to. And forgiveness is not liking someone. Forgiveness is for the forgiver. And so it could be said kindness is the forgiver. So yeah, oh, I had some, someone on the Today Show who was just, I won't mention any names, but was hateful to me.
And I I had to make the decision to take the high road to, and sometimes when you do that, you think, Oh, I'm losing out there winning. No, they're not. And I just said, I'm going. And so I found ways to. Enjoy myself and know my value [00:12:00] and, you know, do this segment that each month we brought a person in to tell their story, wrote a song for them, and I performed it with a Broadway star.
And so it was a big gift to these people and to what they were talking about. And I just said, focus on that. Uh, I mean, my husband, who's a minister, uh, we have one neighbor who did something really, really Really awful to us and years ago, and he says, I keep trying to find a way to forgive. And so he says, sometimes the neighbor waves to me and I'm afraid to wave back because I'm afraid I might not use all my fingers.
Of course, you know, we are moved to get angry, stuff like that. I had one thing, I was negotiating a mortgage and the bank was really. Being horrible and that enrages you and I wrote to a friend of [00:13:00] mine Who's a big negotiator and she set me up with the right people and she said I have one piece of advice No matter what they say be delightful be charming be lovely Person you're dealing with is not the company.
They're a person and they are dealing with you personally. And so I was negotiating a settlement of something and I just, no matter what they said, I was delightful and I settled it for 14 cents on the dollar. And we were friendly at the end. So when you create adversity, you're creating the adversary. To look, you know, there's a line from my song, We Can Be Kind.
Deep down inside, we all need the same thing. You look at someone and if they're being difficult, you say, is that a plea for kindness? Is that a plea for attention? And to not be reactive? [00:14:00] Difficult sometimes, obviously. But it doesn't, it doesn't help you. It doesn't. We try.
Jaclyn: We try. Yes. I wanna, I wanna hear a little bit about the journey to become who you are today. Um, and you know, the career that you've built. So tell me what's your earliest memory of your experience with music? When did you know? Did you know that you wanted to do this or was it just kind of an unbelievable door opening domino effect?
David: Well, I was always musical. Um, my father loved music and my first instrument, we had a friend who taught guitar. So I sang and played guitar and I always wanted a piano, but we never had one until I was like 10. And then I studied piano. And then when I was 12. I was on my way out of the house one day, and my father said, Where are you going?
I said, I'm going to play punch ball with my friends. He says, I want you to practice the piano. I said, I'm going out. I'll practice later. He said, If you leave the house, I'm [00:15:00] stopping your lessons. And he stopped my lessons, and I never had another lesson until college. And so, I went to college. to be a concert pianist, but it was way too late for that.
But I was, um, it wasn't my real interest. There was a lot of should involved in it. And so it's amazing how there's a saying that says, God often does for you what you can't do for yourself. And so circumstance is just. Whatever God is, to any body, spirit, whatever it is, uh, circumstances, make it so that you, things, happen.
So, I was also studying something called Eurythmics at the Dow Crow School, which is a method of music and movement that I studied since I was a child. And I went back there. at 17 to get a teacher's certificate after my freshman year in college. And the woman who, the head of the school, sat me down and she said, You're the youngest person ever to get this [00:16:00] certificate.
And you, uh, are one of the most gifted people. Whoever walked through these doors, and you potentially have a great career in music. However, I have recently noticed a trashy nightclub idiom infiltrating your improvisations. And if you're not extremely careful, you could end up in the pit of a Broadway show.
And so And when I heard that, I went, ooh.
Jaclyn: I kind of like the sound of that. Yeah.
David: I came back to New York and I, I started to get into off off Broadway theater and, and one thing led to another and I ended up conducting on Broadway and then I ended up conducting a show for Alan Menken, uh, who called me when he did the movies Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, Pocahontas, Hunchback, and Notre Dame.
And I conducted and vocal arranged all those. I did five Broadway shows, but what I really wanted to do was write, but that was my. [00:17:00] scariest thing. Because you're really putting yourself forth. So, this is an example of kindness. I was in Houston, putting together Beauty and the Beast Broadway. We were out of town.
And I was also doing the movie Pocahontas at that time. And I said to Alan Menken, who wrote all those movies and got eight Oscars for them and stuff, I said, you know, Alan, uh, I, uh, I'm making a fortune here, but I'm depressed. And Alan said, you know, you're depressed because you're one of the few people who's supposed to be doing what I'm doing.
And he said, I'm going to shoot myself in the foot right now because I could do a movie on a five minute conversation. I was so, you know, attuned to him. I'm going to say, if I were you, I'd take three years and phase me out of your career. So, I did. I did a little less on Hunchback of Notre Dame, I had a hit song with Diana Ross, I started moving in that direction, and [00:18:00] after three years, I did a little less on Hunchback and then they called and said, Uh, we'd like to offer you Hercules.
And I said, I'm gonna pass. And the next day they called and offered me twice as much money. And I said, I'm gonna pass. And the next day, like we hadn't even spoken, they said, we have a great movie for you, Toy Story. And I said, may I recommend someone else? And Alan called me and he said, you're passing. I said, yeah.
He said, you sure? I said, uh, yes. He said, congratulations. And, uh, yeah. And so, I, you know, launched my writing career. And I write songs of inspiration. I met a singer named Nancy Lamont, who was one of the greatest singers of the 20th century, and I produced five albums for her. I wrote for her. She passed away at 43 in 1995.
It was a tragic time for me. Uh, but she recorded my [00:19:00] song, We Can Be Kind, uh, which became an anthem that I used at Duke Children's Hospital and all over the place. Barry Manilow has sung it. And, and then I wrote a book. Based on that song where I took a line, one line from, uh, for each chapter and did examples of kindness, examples of Of how we can be kind to others, how we can be kind to ourselves, stories, essays.
Uh, and so, I just have been, you know, that has been an ancillary thing to my career. And now most of my career is, I write things that I feel will heal people. I would actually call myself a healer more than I'd call myself a writer. Even though everyone knows me as a composer. But, uh, it's got a journey.
Yeah.
Jaclyn: What a journey. No, but, but real, it's so real. And I, if you're comfortable with it, I'm curious on the depressed side, you know, Did [00:20:00] it change immediately as you kept phasing out and started listening to yourself and pursuing the things that filled your cup and brought you joy or like, what was that journey navigating that?
David: What happened to me is I, as a young person was very, very out of touch with who I was with. In fact, I was almost going to be an accountant. And because my father was in, you know, sciences and a musical friend of ours said, It would be a disaster for the world if you did not go into music, but I, I wasn't inside myself.
And so what happened was I had a girlfriend since I was, uh, uh, in my teenage years. And I went to the conservatory to study, um, concert piano. So here I was concert piano married. I'm a gay person. I didn't know that at that. I mean, I knew it and I didn't know it, but so I'm living this life. That is. Just inauthentic.
And I had what [00:21:00] one would call a nervous breakdown. I developed panic disorder. Where the floor was shaking, the room was spinning, my heart was pounding. And I was in a mental hospital for a couple of months. And when I got out, I could hardly function. But I said to myself, Uh, okay. If I walk across the room, it's gonna spin.
You want to walk across the room? Walk, it's gonna spin. A few years later, I was in New York with my father on Christmas Eve, and I said, Drive me down to Macy's, drop me, and I'm gonna walk through. Pick me up on the other side. So I walked through, everything spinning, everything going, everything, and I made it.
And I said, I don't know if this will ever go away. But I can live with it. Before a few years, I was conducting on Broadway. Here you're sitting in a pit in front of a thousand people and something you can't stop. So I put a sign on my mirror, on my music stand. I'm sure the first row enjoyed it. It [00:22:00] said, So die, but don't walk off.
And I would just do this. And so I teach people. In fact, I have a whole Other part of my life, a metaphysical part of my life where I wrote a book called the Thought Exchange, overcoming our resistance to living a sensational life. So many of us, when we have a positive thought, if that positive thought was associated trauma.
Like if you said, I can do this. And someone slapped you across the face and said, no, you can't. You immediately associate. I can do this with pain and danger. So when you think I can do it, you feel discomfort, which means nothing now. But as a child, we learned to go that thought cause this, I'm going to go to a protective thought, which is I can't do this.
And so I teach people I've written many books and I do seminars all over on thought exchange to be with your Sensations that come with the thoughts you want to hold. So, [00:23:00] my favorite example of this, I was winning a Lifetime Achievement Award and Lucie Arnaz was presenting it to me. And we're backstage, pacing the floor nervously because she has to go out and expound on my virtues and then I have to go out and sing and accept an award, whatever that is.
And all of a sudden she stops because she does thought exchange with me and she said, alright, thought exchange. What are my sensations? My throat is tight, my stomach is churning, and my hands are shaking. And just as she said that, the announcer said, Ladies and gentlemen, won't you welcome to the stage, the one, the only, the fabulous Miss Lucy Arnez!
And she looked at me and went, Well, hell, I can go out there with that. And she walked out. So, that's the point when we learn. And in a certain way, see, that is a piece of kindness to ourselves. Yes. Rather than beating ourselves up. Oh, my God, why do I feel this way? It's terrible. To look and to compassionate.
[00:24:00] Because, you know, the word compassion. Compassion means With in Latin and passion like the passion of the Christ passion means pain So when I'm compassionate, I'm with I'm feeling your pain in here and I'm with you So I'm not telling you perk up or what's the matter with you or whatever. I'm going I see you.
And that's normal. So, we're all nervous. We're all anxious. We're all, and to be able to be kind about it, like when I was, you know, uh, at the height of Broadway and, and film, musicians would call me all the time looking for work, but they couldn't say that. So, they'd call and say, Hey Dave! Just calling a chicken, how you doing, and I would answer them as though they asked me for work.
I'd say, I'm great. You know what? I was thinking about you. There's a job that you [00:25:00] might, I'd let them off the hook, you know, let people off the hook. And again, always think, and I think this is so important, to always think, what would I want in this situation? So, to, you know, if, if, if someone is in a, A situation where they're demanding something of you.
Think, what would I want to have somebody say to me? How would I want someone? And then, we have the ability to treat. I am like that. I mean, I remember, do you know the, um, the post office letters to Santa, where kids send letters to Santa, and you can go fill one. I went down and got one, and the letter was, Dear Santa, you know, um, I, I feel so bad for some of my friends whose parents were killed in the World Trade Center, and it's, uh, you know, and I have parents, and they said, I don't know if you [00:26:00] exist, but I would like, and they wanted a bear and chapter books, and some computer things. So I, and the kid sounds so lovely, so I went and I bought a bear bigger than me. I went to like F. A. O. Schwartz and bought this huge bear. And then I went to the, to the, uh, Barnes Noble and they explained what chapter books were, I bought some. And then I put in a 300 gift certificate to Kmart.
And I, I did this red Santa Claus North Pole Stationery, and he said, Hi, it was so lovely to hear from you. I hope you like the bear, et cetera, et cetera, and why don't you have your mommy and daddy take you to Kmart and you can buy what you need for the computer. Remember, dreams do come true. Love, Santa.
And I sent it. I will never meet that kid. And the post office gives you half price on the sending. And when I sent it, I felt so wonderful. As I said at the beginning, not because I'm so magnanimous. But because if some kid could have a wish that gets fulfilled in some way [00:27:00] that they never dreamed possible, that means I can too.
So when I was sitting in bed one night at 10 o'clock at night and Alan Menken called and says, Hi David, what are you doing? I said, I'm in bed, I'm reading a magazine, what's up? He said, I just signed a two picture deal to do Beauty and the Beast in Latin. Want to do them? I said, yeah, sure. He said, good, I'll call you tomorrow.
Out of nowhere. So you're teaching this kid that that can happen. Um, but you're You're making it happen yourself, which means it could happen for you. And in my book, We Can Be Kind, I, I, it's called Healing Our World, One Kindness at a Time.
I talk about, I list in each chapter ways you can act toward yourself to make this happen.
And, uh, so it's, it's, kindness is everywhere.
Jaclyn: It's everywhere. Yeah. Do, um, do you do renditions? Can we get like a verse or chorus from your song? Well, I don't have to do it, but let me see if I can find it here. Okay. [00:28:00] I would love to hear it, and we'll include the details on the book and all that as well in the show notes, so we can send our listeners to go find it.
David: Yes, see here it's where it's important to have, um, sound on. Let me see. All right, I'll give you me singing it.
Jaclyn: Okay.
David Singing: So many things we can So many hurts So many heartaches That pierce the soul So much pain that won't ache[00:29:00]
We can be kind And take care of each other We can remember that deep down inside We all need the same
We'll find, if we are there, each other, that together we'll weather whatever tomorrow may bring.
Nobody really wants to fight,
everyone wants to make things right. So what are we always fighting for? Does [00:30:00] nobody want to see it? Does nobody understand? Power to heal is right here in our, we can be.
We can.
We can remember that deep down inside, we all need the same thing. Maybe we'll find
there for each other, that together we'll weather what
it's not enough to talk about it. Not enough. to sing a song. We must walk the walk about it. You and I die. We've [00:31:00] got to try
to get a way. We can take care of each other. We can remember the Down inside, we all need the same thing. And maybe we'll find if we are there for each other, that together we'll weather whatever tomorrow may bring.
If we always remember we can.[00:32:00]
Jaclyn: Oh, David, thank you. That's such a. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful song. Wow. Thank you. I'm so honored.
David: You know, anywhere where we can promote kindness, I'm happy to have it used.
Jaclyn: Thank you. Um, I can't believe how fast it all went. Um, and I just would love to end, we'd love to just ask a few questions to help close out.
So would love to know how would you define kindness in one word?
David: I'm choosing between empathy and love.
Jaclyn: Okay, we'll do both. If you could get everyone around the world to do one kind act, what would it be?
David: Listen.
Jaclyn: Oof. If kindness were a song? I'm assuming we just heard it. We're making a Spotify [00:33:00] playlist of all the answers.
So that's perfect. Um, what are you reading right now or listening to on audible?
David: I'm listening to Barbara Streisand's book. My name is Barbara.
Jaclyn: How is it?
David: It's brilliant. It's all 48 hours of it and it's for me and show business. It's really a lesson in how she works and you know, how she thinks. So, um, it's wonderful because I'm in Connecticut.
We are in the car a lot and you just listen in the car. Yes.
Jaclyn: Um, is there anything you didn't get to say that you would want to make sure you say?
David: There's one thing I, I mean, I, I read somewhere that sometimes you ask people to call people and give them an act of kindness and that's our final thing.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
David: I, instead of that, what I'd like to suggest, there's a practice that my friend Mitchell. Uh, Savage taught me, and it's called Kamikaze Drive by Prayer. So what you do is in the morning, you really think about someone and pray for them, and, and, you know, really pray that a day [00:34:00] works out, and then you pray for them and say, How was your day?
And you see, you invariably find that the prayer worked.
Jaclyn: I love that. That's what, is that a real thing? Kamikaze?
David: Yeah,
Jaclyn: okay.
David: You just, you just pray for someone unbeknownst to them. You don't tell them. Yeah. And so that we experiment with how, you know, there is the Nuts and bolts when we're kind, this happens when we're positive, but there, there is the, that when you are kind or when you are positive, certain things happen, uh, nuts and bolts, but then there's the way in which it permeates the universe, the way in which you get a call from somewhere when, you know, my thought exchange is about hold the thought.
Even if you don't know how it's going to happen, hold the thought that there's financial abundance, hold the thought that good things happen. I have a student in thought exchange whose mother used to say, I wonder [00:35:00] what wonderful surprises God has in store for me today. Again, whatever God is to people, whether it's spirit, whether it's the way the universe works.
So I'm going to think about who I want to send a kamikaze prayer to. And, uh, and then I'll call them later and see what, uh, what, how it worked out. So I know exactly what I'm doing.
Jaclyn: I can't wait to hear it. Please. You tell me let's stay in touch on that.
Outro: Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of the why kindness podcast To learn more about everything you heard today from our wonderful guests.
Definitely. Check out our show notes We hope you're leaving this episode inspired and reminded that every kind act truly does make a difference We'd love to hear how you're choosing kindness in your day to day We write back to every email, so let us know what you think. And please leave a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify.
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