In this episode, Jaclyn sits down with the inspiring Ernesto Rodriguez to hear the compelling story of his journey from prison to a life transformed by kindness and the work he is doing with Kindful Restoration to pay it all forward.
Trigger warning. This interview discusses the specific person's experience with abuse, trauma, suicide, and violence.
If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse of any kind, please reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline. Their phone number is 1 (800) 799-7233. Or you can visit their safe, secure website, thehotline.org.
If you or anyone you know is experiencing thoughts of suicide you can reach out to 988 Suicide and Crisis Hotline by dialing 988 (us) or by visiting 988lifeline.org.
In this inspiring and in-depth episode, Jaclyn speaks with Ernesto Rodriguez about how he went from a prison sentence in solitary confinement to the program developer for Kindful Restoration. They discuss how unkindness led him on a path to destruction and how shifting his life toward kindness set him free.
Ernesto Rodriguez was born into a life where poverty, violence, and addiction created a deep yearning to find acceptance, which eventually led to him to gangs. At age 18, Ernesto was arrested for attempted murder, carjacking, and assault with a firearm, and at age 27 found himself in solitary confinement for 8 years. It was there he began a transformation sparked by kindness. He enrolled in college, self-help, AA, and NA and spent his years paying the kindness he received forward. While in prison he became a certified counselor and earned a bachelor’s in science in Psychology. He was released from prison in 2023 and began working as the program developer for Kindful Restoration - a subdivision of the Choose Kindness Foundation.
This podcast is one of the many ways we live out our organization's mission to educate and inspire people to choose kindness. Visit our site kindness.org and sign up to become a part of our global community which spans more than 100 countries. It's free to join and when you do you'll be the first to get access to our latest research, tools, and even episodes of this podcast. Let's build a kinder world, together. Contact us at podcast@kindness.org or on social at @kindnessorg.
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Why Kindness? Ernesto Rodriguez
Intro: Trigger warning. This interview discusses the specific person's experience with abuse, trauma, suicide, and violence. If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic abuse of any kind, please reach out to the National Domestic Violence Hotline. Their phone number is 1 800 799 7233. Or you can visit their safe, secure website, thehotline.org
Kindness. Why kindness? Because it makes a difference for connection. Kindness can change lives. It's contagious. The science says you'll be glad you did. Kindness is. The key to a healthier, happier world.
Jaclyn: Why kindness? While no one answer is the same. One thing is clear. Kindness is something we all know, but do we know why it matters?
I'm your host, Jaclyn Lindsay, co founder CEO of kindness. org. And you're listening to Why Kindness.
Jaclyn: Hello friends, and welcome to another episode of the why kindness podcast. I am incredibly humbled. And, uh, uh, really honestly excited to share this next guest with you, a person who has one of those stories you read about in books, um, or you might see in a movie, it's a story that talks about healing and restoration, forgiveness, and really reminds us on just how big and wide the power of kindness really is.
Um, Here to share that story, I am so, uh, excited to welcome Ernesto Rodriguez to the show today. Ernesto, hello. Thank you so much for being with us on today's episode of Why Kindness? Um, and we're going to get right into it and I'm going to just open it up and ask you, why kindness? What would you say to that question?
Ernesto: Why kindness? Why not? Um, for so many years, I've experienced a lot of unkindness that, you know, when I decided to, to, um, team up with kindness. That's the question. Why kindness? Because that's what we need as a community to heal and to move forward from all of the, all of the things that we see out here in our community.
Homelessness, violence, uh, addiction, uh, gangs. There's so much stuff going on, on out here. And if we all ask that question, why kindness? I think that together, collectively, we could express and show and utilize kindness to make a difference. That's why I choose kindness.
Jaclyn: Thank you. I love that. Um, to get us to present day, I know we need to back up a little bit and really unpack, um, just the remarkable story, um, that you have and, and journey that you've led throughout life.
So why don't you tell us a little bit about, um, just starting at childhood, whatever you're comfortable sharing, what life was like for you growing up?
Ernesto: Well, to start, I have to say I was really born into a bottom of the barrel kind of life. And what that means. Um, Was that I never met my biological father.
My stepmother migrated from Mexico. She was nine months pregnant and her dream was to give me a better life. What she didn't foresee was that she married my stepfather, who was a career criminal, struggled with addiction. So needless to say that, um, in those formative years of my development, I witnessed domestic violence, addiction, and, and it was a revolving door for, for both my parents of in and out of prison.
So as a result, I ended up in foster homes. I ended up with different family members. Uh, there were times as a child that I remember, you know, uh, being on my own in the streets, uh, trying to care for my two little sisters. That was extremely difficult. But I, I, I always rose to the occasion. I fed, clothed, and cared for my little sisters, regardless of whatever setting I was in.
But I've, I feel like the, the emotions and the feelings that I most remember. or fear. I didn't know when my parents were going to be gone or in prison. I didn't know when something was going to trigger my stepfather and he would start to beat my mom. I just didn't know. And the unknown I think is what scares me the most.
Um, even today. So there was a definitely a culture of extreme unkindness that, that I learned in a, in a, in a early, in my early years of childhood. Um, I developed core beliefs that, you know. that basically communicated, Hey, I have to take care of myself because nobody else will. I have to go out there and get what I need because nobody's gonna give me anything.
So, it was in that mindset that I graduated gradually. Um, began to, you know, to be part of the problem in my community. I stole, I fought, um, and I just projected this extreme unkindness, um, anger, violence, arrogance, um, selfishness. Because of that, uh, initial setting that I was placed in, very unstable, very unkind, and you know, for me it was a survival.
It was just a horrible, horrible situation. And I know that many people in the world are born to a bottom of the barrel kind of life, but And my experience, you know, we all personalize our experience to what is happening to us. And so that's what happened to me.
Jaclyn: Of course. Um, where, where was home for you?
Where, where did you grow up?
Ernesto: I grew up in the areas of Compton, Long Beach. And so when my parents would get incarcerated. My mom and my stepfather, I would, uh, be taken to Mexico on occasions. That was the areas that I grew up in, mostly Compton and Long Beach.
Jaclyn: How old were you when your, um, survival tendencies started to veer into the activity, you know, that.
You shared that the bad activity, was it criminal activity? Like, and do you recall what it was as the final catalyst? If there was any where you realized this was the path you were going down?
Ernesto: Yeah. So age five, when I was, when I remember. Beginning that trajectory of, of criminal behavior. And I remember it was after a visit at a prison to see my stepfather.
My mom took my sisters and I, uh, to see him. I remember it vividly as if it was yesterday. And I'm, and I remember at, at one point of the visit, he takes me to the side. And he tells me, listen, you're the man of the house now and you have to take care of the women and you know, it's up to you. Um, so at that moment, what he didn't know is that I had observed him beat my mom, steal, um, use narcotics.
Um, I viewed him as this persona of, uh, of, of power. But the way that he gained that power was through anger and violence. So when he told me that, what I heard was, Hey, I have to emulate that. I have to live up to that standard in order to be the man of the house. So at that point, I remember You know, when I went back to school and a kid touched my crayons or a kid, you know, said something, you know, smart at me, I remember that my anger began at that time because I had to put that mask on and be the protector, be the man of the house, the man of the house to me meant I had to hurt others, I had to be angry, angry with others in order to live up to that image.
And so that's how everything began. I, I stole everywhere. I went, I fought at school, out of school. Um, I just had this very negative, angry attitude that shaped the, the way that I saw the world. And it wasn't until age 11. I remember that my stepfather was out of prison and, um, we broke into a neighbor's house together.
Um, so I'm in the window, opening the window to go open the door and we just, we, we cleaned that place out. But it was in that moment, all up until then, it was more like I was just following, I was trying to emulate, you know, what my stepfather had told me. But it was at that point where I realized and made the decision.
Hey, in this world, I have to take what I want and what I need in order to survive. And that's when, for me, it was like, it was like a conscious decision where I said, you know what, this is who I'm going to be because this is where I come from. And that's when I was consciously deciding to. I decided to be a criminal at that point.
Jaclyn: Wow. I will definitely want to revisit, you know, present day and work you've done to heal and restore that narrative. You know, this is experiences, of course, no child. Should ever have to go through. You had things normalized for you that you then saw as normal, um, or acceptable. Um, but let's, let's keep going a little bit further.
This, um, happens at 11. I can't imagine. Um, what that would be like such a defining moment and in your mind you feel you're choosing this path and so then walk us through kind of what happens the next several years as you as you pursue this, this path.
Ernesto: When I made that decision at 11 to become a criminal.
It was also with the underlying issue of wanting control and power in my life. I have to go take what I want in order to feel power and control and be a man. From that point forward, I was a terror. Nobody can, could say anything to me. Nobody could direct me or counsel me because I, I had to have the power and the control.
And so around age 11 is when I first drank my first beer. And so I think I was looking for anything to numb all of those thoughts and those negative feelings as that I was experiencing because unkindness was the centerpiece of my life. It wasn't, it wasn't until age 15, where, when I met the mother of my kids.
And for a small moment, for a small moment, for, for about two years and a half, I thought that I would be able to live a normal life because I was 15 and she was 14. She got pregnant and I left home. I left home at age 16. I got my first job. I got my, my own apartment. I started paying all the bills and I was working about two, three jobs.
Well, two jobs and going to school, but we would fight a lot. She would get jealous and you know, I would try to communicate with her well. I have to work to be able to pay the bills and all of that. And for that small moment though, life was good. You know, my daughter was born, I would play with my daughter.
I mean, I would go to work, we would do a, the family thing. But I was gone from home, so much working that the mother of my kids, uh, she cheated on me with one of my good friends. And when she told me what had happened, it, right there, I remember it. Just like I'm feeling some type of way right now, just thinking about it because that was the moment where I completely disconnected not just from her or or you know the setting that I was trying to create well I feel like I disconnected from my community from the world and I realized or I made the realization at that time that Nobody, nobody cares about me.
So I'm done with everything. I'm done with family. I'm done with friends. I'm done with, you know, I didn't want anything close to me. So I broke up with her and I remember those, those months after the breakup, I would be at home in the dark. Um, I started to use drugs. I would drink, but in the dark with myself and, uh, I contemplated suicide.
I got a gun and I would often sit there and thinking about taking my life because I would think to myself ‘Why was I born in this world’? Well, well when all I have experienced is just trauma, hurt, pain and I didn't know how to talk to anyone about that And so I was 17 years old in a dark apartment with a gun, high, drunk seriously thinking like I can't go on like this.
I there's nothing for me to go on for. Um, and the feelings that I felt internally, it hurt just waking up. I didn't know how to cope with that situation at 17 years old. And the only reason that I didn't go through with the suicide with the gun is because about six months before that, my friend, my best, one of my best friend, not the one that had the infidelity with the mother of my children.
He shot himself in the head playing Russian roulette in my home. We were messing around one night and he accidentally shot himself playing a game. And I remember at the funeral and the wake the family, the tears, the crying, the wailing that I saw. I didn't want my family to go through that. I didn't want my mom or my sisters.
To go through that even though I I felt like they didn't care. I just still didn't want to put them through that So I'm sitting in that apartment. I'm still working and There's this girl at work who pretty much, you know, she kind of notices that I'm not talking to anyone I'm not really interacting and she says hey, you know, do you want to hang out one of these nights?
And I'm like, okay, so we hang out and the only problem with that was that all of our friends were gang members. We're hanging out and everybody's drinking, they're partying, there's girls, there's guys. They all seemed like they had problems, you know. And when I was in that setting, I felt normal. Because there was other people, I didn't, I never felt normal around normal people because I didn't feel normal.
I didn't have a normal life. And so when, now, now I'm around these, these people and they're cussing, they're drinking, they're doing drugs. They're talking about they're going to go fight these other people, these rival gangs. And I felt at home at that moment. And, you know, I started hanging out with them and I started to commit acts of violence with the more that I did an act of violence or unkindness, the more that I felt I was being accepted.
And I would, and I was fitting in with a family that understood the brokenness that I had inside of me. I wanted so much to be part of this gang that I just, I terrorized my community. And, uh, six months later, after I met these people, I got arrested for attempted murder on a police officer, a carjacking and assaults with firearms.
And so now I'm 18 years old. In the county jail, you know, fighting a case that they were trying to give me life in prison and I spent about a year and a half fighting this case in the county jail. At that point, I said to myself, it would have been better if it would have just, they would have just took me out because this life has not been one that I've been.
It's been a horrible experience thus far. How much more are we going to do this? How much more? And at that point I also didn't take responsibility of what I was contributing to that cycle of unkindness because I was projecting and creating as much unkindness as the world had been to me. But I didn't realize that then.
From that point, I'm sent to, um, once I get sentenced, which was to 37 years, Four months to prison.
Jaclyn: You're, you're 18. Sorry to interrupt, but you're 18 and you get sentenced to 37 years and primarily it sounds like the altercation with the police officer. Right.
Ernesto: Yeah. Um, well I was 19 because I fought the case for a year and a half.
So I'm 19 now and I'm going to prison.
Jaclyn: Okay. And this is where, where are you being sent to?
Ernesto: High Desert State Prison maximum security.
Jaclyn: And where is that located?
Ernesto: That is high deserts in Sousaville, California. Okay.
Jaclyn: And you're, are you still at, um, having any kind of relationship with the mother of your children or your, was it one daughter or two daughters at this point?
Ernesto: Yeah. Um, today we have a, a healthy, uh, Not, uh, we have a healthy relationship. We're not together. I am in constant contact with her and my daughters. We were able to move forward and, and just basically have a relationship for the sake of them. It took me a lot of years for me to, to get to a mature place to be able to accept that because for many years I didn't want to speak to her.
Jaclyn: Okay. I didn't want to interrupt, but I wanted to just help paint the picture of where you were at at that time. So, okay. So you get sent to high desert. You're 19 and the term is for 37 years and four months. So then I know that this is where things really pick up for you. So please walk us through a little bit of what happens.
Ernesto: So this was in 2001 when I got to high desert. And for the first 10 years of that, which wasn't just high desert, I went to other facilities, but high desert, I was just a horrible person. You could probably put my picture to the definition of unkindness. I had so much resentment. I was angry. I didn't take responsibility for anything.
I blamed everyone else for. All of the things and all the experiences that I have lived up to that point. So when I get to high desert, the gang is the only thing that I feel like is my purpose now in life. I said, okay, well, this is my family and I can relate to them because they're dysfunctional, just like me.
And just like, I remember, um, my stepfather and my mom being, so there was a connection right there of the behavior where I felt at home. So I'm in high desert now and I didn't know what to expect. All I remember was, was movies. Expectations that I have of prison. So I get to prison and the first thing that I do is I find the person that ran the, the, the, the yard.
And I say, Hey, I'm right here. I'm so and so from, from this gang. And I want to do anything necessary to put my gang on the map and let everyone know that my gang is the toughest, the angriest, and the most violent. And so they gave me a knife and they said, okay, from here on out, you're going to hold this knife.
And they taught me how to make a knife. They taught me how to hold it, how to wrap it. And so there I am, 19 years old, carrying, carrying a knife inside of prison. And I remember telling them like, well, I want to do acts of violence. I want to, you know, I want, I want to make a name for myself. I want recognition to let everyone know that I'm someone not to be messed with, number one, and number two, that my gang is the toughest one.
That's all I could think about. So I remember that the person that had the yard, he came to me one day and says, Hey, well, we got this guy that's in prison for raping a woman and we have to take care of that. Are you willing to do it? And at that moment, I remember what I went through as a kid. And then my two little sisters also got molested in that process of all the different settings that we were in.
So I didn't hesitate. I said, yes, I'll go stab this guy. And so I went and that was the first act of violence I remember in prison. It just kind of set the tone how I was going to do those next 10 years. So what happens is when you commit an act of violence, or you get caught with a serious rules violation, you get, uh, like 15 month disciplinary infractions in the whole or solitary confinement.
Solitary confinements were at Pelican Bay, which is in Crescent City, California. Or, uh, they had another one, Corcoran Chew, which was in Corcoran, California. I, I always ended up at Pelican Bay in Crescent City for some reason. The gang leaders, or shot callers, started to notice that in me as a, as a young man.
And I was violent. I was willing to, to commit violence. And so they, they promoted me, so to speak, in the game. So what that meant is they, they connected me with, you know, the mafia, the Mexican mafia. And so now I'm 25, 26 years old and I'm running the yards for them. I'm selling narcotics for them. I'm making money for them.
And, and that was. You know, those, those 10 years, those first 10 years, that's what my life was. And so when you start getting involved with prison gangs and running yards and having, uh, positions of, of, uh, authority within institutions. Um, they have gang task force in their, uh, staff who their sole job is to locate, identify, and strategize how to segregate people who are in the political arena, so to speak.
So at age 27, I get into this big old violent gang rival type of thing, political thing, and the gang task force, uh, creates enough of a case to be able to justify, to validate me. Which means that when you're validated at that time, anybody that got validated, you're usually doing 10, 15, 20, 30, some even did 40 years in solitary confinement at Pelican Bay.
And so that's what happened to me at age 27. I get sent to Pelican Bay indefinitely, which means now I'm validated and I could very well spend the next 10, 20, 30 years back through my in solitary
Jaclyn: solitary confinement
Ernesto: Yeah, solitary confinement. That was in 2010.
Jaclyn: Wow. Um, and, and just so I can understand the setting, you know, of course I just conjure, uh, movie scenes, like a Shawshank Redemption or something.
But is solitary confinement means 23 hours in a cell alone? What, what's the setup there? What does it look like to be in solitary confinement?
Ernesto: Yes, so pretty much in solitary confinement. It has a, it has a nickname or it had a nickname back then, which was, uh, the torture chamber. People went there and the only way you could get out was to parole, die or debrief.
were debriefing because t culture that was still in was so deep that everyone Debrief because that was the most dishonorable thing that you could do within the gang.
Jaclyn: What does it mean to debrief?
Ernesto: Debriefing is where, when you talk to the gang task force and you basically tell them your whole gang experience, even everyone who you came in contact with and you just tell them.
Your whole experience and the gang members are completely opposed to that because then now You're talking about their business their dealings and that basically you have to keep that a secret so Debriefing was like the most horrible thing that a game member could do and so no one debrief no one So i'm at pelican bay and I walk into the pod.
So in the shoe you have Sides you have c side and you have d side In 2010, they took all the members, which I, which I'm talking about, Mexican mafiaa, uh, no familia, uh, the Arian Brotherhoods and the the bgs, and they secluded all the members and put 'em on D site over there in Pelican Bay. Then they took all the associates were, which meant all the people that usually ran the yards and took care of.
You know, they were called associates and they put them on C Side. So I ended up in C Side and each side has buildings, 1 through 12 I believe. I was in 6th building and now when you're inside of a building you have pods A through F. So each pod, I ended up on C Pod, each pod had 8 cells. Four cells on the bottom and then four cells on the top.
So it was a two story setting there. And generally when you end up in the shoe at Pelican Bay for a validation, you're a single cell. In the pod, we had eight people. We had 10 people. One, two cells were cellies and the rest were single cell, including myself. And we're talking about. When you're in that situation, get comfortable because you're not going to go nowhere.
You're not going to go out the pod for, for anything, or you're not going to go see anyone. Nobody's going to come see you. Very few people were lucky to get a visit from a family. And really, the only way to get out of the pod was to go to medical. And over the years, people got so comfortable in their cell.
which I call it a concrete tomb. They didn't even want to go to medical. They were, they were used to and comfortable and being in one spot for hours and hours, for days and days, for weeks and weeks, months and months, and years and years, in the same spot, undisturbed. I felt like those walls, which felt like an asylum setting, white walls, We're going to just steal my soul away.
I felt like I was slowly being buried alive. And then the problem with that setting too, was that I didn't have any more alcohol or drugs. So I was forced to think about my thinking, meaning that I was thinking about my past. I was thinking about all the things that I went through. I was thinking about that.
I felt as a dad, I was thinking about all the stuff and I couldn't. I couldn't run away from my thoughts. And so imagine those thoughts. Being in that situation with all that dysfunction and those underlying issues that I had, those voices were extremely loud. I couldn't get away from them. And I remember one day, I go to the shower to shave and it's a controlled release.
One person at a time and so I'm in the shower and the lights are real dim It's flickering a little bit and I'm shaving and I'm looking at myself and I was just disgusted at the image I saw I had sunken eyes. I was pale No, I wasn't getting any Sun and uh, and it was at that moment that I realized how much of a scumbag I was.
It was in that moment that I realized that I have authored the most unkindness And to my community and my family, as it was expressed, as it was done to me, I was just as guilty as the person who abused me, as the people who beat on me and the worst of them all, my stepfather, who terrorized me by the experiences that he modeled for me in my very early years.
It was in that moment that. I didn't want to be that person anymore. Wow. I just didn't know where to start. Right. And how to change that. When I walked back to my cell, my heart was heavy. And I was crying, but not externally, but inside. Mm hmm. And I went into my cell, the door closes, and I just collapsed on the ground.
And now I start sobbing externally, uncontrollably. And I don't know, I, I, up to that point, I didn't, I knew of people believing in a higher power and God and all that, all those kind of things. I didn't know if one existed. Or if a God existed or if there's a higher power or anything, but I, I felt so much agony and suffering within my spirit that I looked up and I shook my fist and I said, I don't know who you are, if you exist, or if you're hearing me right now, but I'm tired and I need help.
And. Why does my life have to be like this? Why do I have to be like this? And I'll make you a deal if you're listening, if you exist. I said you spare my kids learning about life the way I did and you can have mine. I promise you that. I said I'll do my part from here on out. My life doesn't no longer belongs to me.
But it's yours, whoever you are, just spare my daughter's learning about life the way I did. And when I woke up, Jaclyn, I felt a drive, a inner inspiration, a conviction, a resolution that I don't think I've ever experienced before in my life. And I didn't know what change looked like but I remember sitting down on my stool in that cell and I took down a piece of paper and I wrote down, I want to change.
I sat for a minute and I thought about how am I going to do this? What do I do? And I remember writing down, I'm going to do the opposite of what I have done up until now. And I sat there for a while and I said, okay, well, what does that mean? And that's where the journey began. They say that they said that the, the, the master doesn't appear until the student is ready or the teacher doesn't appear until the student is ready.
And at that point, it was the onset of me being ready for something different. And I said, I'm going to be the change. And that's where it began. Jack and my, my, the trajectory took a turn at that point, right there. I'll tell you what, it was at that point, a lot of stuff started happening in solitary confinement.
People were talking about hunger strikes, people were talking about those conditions and all of that. And so I was, in the background I was listening to all of the stuff that was going on, as far as people wanting to change those conditions. But one thing I was certain of was, my decisions, my behavior put me in that situation.
Not the prison officials or the gang task force or anybody else. Yes. Maybe the settings a little bit too much, but that wasn't my concern. I said, this is where I'm going to do the work. I'm going to open up the hood here and I'm going to, I'm going to look inside. Before that, it was my worst fear wanting to look within my own self, which is why I wore masks of anger, violence, you know, all those personas that I put.
I didn't want anybody to see what really was inside because I was scared. Right. I was a scared little boy. And I didn't want anyone to see that. Yeah. So I remember turning to an institutional channel, and I found a thing they call the GED Express. I didn't know what that meant, but I wrote, and in prison you have these things called inmate requests, where you can write your request and send it to the staff you're trying to communicate with.
And so I got an inmate request, and I wrote to the GED Express. And I say, um, I don't know what this is about. Or how, what the process is. But I remember my mom always telling me, get your GED, get your GED. And I never wanted to do it. I thought, why do I need a GED? I'm going to die in prison. There's no reason why I would want to do or anything to do with school.
And so now I'm doing the opposite of what I've been doing up to this point. So I said, you know what, I'm going to do this GED. And so I wrote the prison official. And I said, Hey, I want to do my GD Express. I have two daughters and I want to change my life. And I think this might be on the, on something that I need to get in order to change my life.
I really don't know exactly how, but can you help me? Two days later, I get the response back and said, Hey, you have a, uh, a scheduled, uh, interview or something. So the person came to talk to me and, and we talked and I just, I mean, a lot poured out. I can imagine. And the center of it all was I want to change for my daughters.
I want to be a better role model for my daughters. That was the revolving message I was saying to everyone up from that point forward. And so he, uh, he signed me up for the GED express. Jaclyn, I got my GED three weeks later. Because I would get up at 5 a. m. in the morning and study that math. And let me tell you, when I first started looking at that math, I almost went cross eyed it.
Cause I didn't, I mean, numbers were all over the place and formulas and all this kind of thing. But I stuck 5 a. m. in the morning until 10 p. m. at night. I would sit there and study and study and study and write and read. I was going to pass that GED test. No matter. I mean, I, it felt like my life depended on it.
And I think that it did at that time. And that was the first time that I completed, completed anything positive. I felt a sense of pride. You know, I felt a sense of accomplishment. And it was a different kind of high that I had felt. I never felt that kind of high. It felt good. It felt organic. It felt natural.
And I wanted more of it. I started writing everybody. I must've wrote about a hundred letters to all kinds of different places. And so I found, uh, correspondence, college courses, I found AA, I found NA, and people were gravitating towards my story because I had this candid, sincere approach to me, unfiltered.
Yeah. And so I got into AA, NA, I got a sponsor back there in, in, uh, solitary confinement. It was the law library. I don't even know how I talked that lady into becoming my sponsor, but she would call me in every week to the law library. And we would work the steps. And then I found a, uh, uh, uh, a college, like, correspondence Bible study.
So I did that. And then in, in 2013, on the TV, they had a, an opportunity for, to do college. But you had to have five years or less. And so that wasn't necessarily my situation, because I had forever in there. And I remember I wrote Mr. Pelchat. I said, Mr. Pelchat, I want to be in college. I want to, I want to change my life.
I'm not going to be in here forever. I don't know when something's going to change, but I know I'm not going to die back here. I'm not going to get buried alive back here. And my daughters need me and I need a change for my daughters. And I feel like college is the way to go. And, and he wrote me back like, Oh, Mr.
Rodriguez, I don't think that's going to be possible. There's the rules and blah, blah, blah. I couldn't accept that. I knew going to college was in the cards for me and I couldn't accept this. So I wrote this probably like about five or six page testimony directly to the college, Feather River. And I put a picture of my daughters and me, they, my mom had brought them to visit me when they were about five.
And three and there's this picture where I'm holding them on my arms. And I sent that picture with that letter, Jaclyn, two weeks later, some lady walks into the pod and says, is there any Ernesto Rodriguez here? I said, yeah, that's me. She says, Hey, I got all your college work. You're in college now. I couldn't believe it.
I couldn't believe that that door opened up for me in 2013. And there was a tower lady in my pod. Her name was Ms. Stacks. She had become a believer. She was enthusiastic, supported me. She started to throw me, anytime it was my birthday, she would get a banana and, and pour, and, uh, pour peanut butter all over it.
And then seeing me happy birthday on my birthday back there. And, um, I remember talking to her about the college, the algebra. And I said, Hey, Ms. Stacks, I can't do this math. It's hard. Let me borrow your calculator. And we're talking about solitary confinement. I mean, strict. All we had was boxers, t shirts, and shoes back there.
So, you know, it's very, you know, we're not allowed spoons, cups, bowls, clothes, anything, because anything can be used as a weapon. That lady started to let me borrow that calculator every day. And then, and this is the, this is the part you really gotta hear. I wrote, uh, an essay. a descriptive essay about solitary confinement.
It was a college assignment I had to write. And I send it to the professor with my assignments. And so this professor writes me back, and says, Hey, you have to get this essay published. This essay, it has to get out there. What you wrote about solitary confinement, you have to get this published. And I remember reading that letter, and I was like, what's the big deal about this essay?
I just wrote about what's happening right here. I mean, my situation. I didn't think nothing special of it. But, again, now I'm doing the opposite. So I used to listen, I used to not listen to advice, and now I'm listening to the advice. So I get that essay and I send it to Prison Hunger Strikers. Um, that was an organization that got involved with Pelican Bay specifically because we were starting to do hunger strikes and then we did a massive hunger strike where it was, I mean, it was like world, worldwide.
I don't know if you remember that in 2013. But it was a massive hunger strike at Pelican Bay that caused a lot of change in that setting. And I think that was the beginning of why solitary, indefinite solitary confinement came to a halt. But anyways, I sent this essay to, uh, to them, to some lady named Sharon Martinez.
And so she reads that essay and writes me back and says, Hey, can I share this essay with a friend? And so I tell her yes. And the friend that ended up being Leah Carmine. And so that's how I met the Carmines with that essay. And when I met them, when Leah started to write me, it was like an explosion of kindness and love.
And let me tell you, every time I share that story, I always get emotional because. I didn't understand how a complete stranger could come into my life and love me and be kind to me when I had done all those horrible things before in my, in my past. But Leah Carmine loved on me. She expressed kindness to me.
Then she introduced me to Doug Carmine and he just, whew, he loved on me. They taught me about kindness and mindfulness. I was sharing how I had trouble sleeping. And so Doug and Leah were teaching me about how mindfulness works, how, what it is, how I can practice it, how I can meditate. It was so impactful in my life at that time with the sensory deprivation.
They start, I started to look around me and say, where can I pay forward an act of kindness? Who can I be kind to? What can I do? And so back there in that setting, a lot of people didn't have funds to go to commissary. I did, I was fortunate. So I remember I started making food for people that I thought didn't have any food.
And they'd be like, oh, I'll pay you back. I said, no, don't worry about it, man. It's just, pay it forward. Whenever you see someone that you can help, help them. Something started to happen back there. People wanted to do some classes, they wanted to get in college. Something was going on. He's like, Hey, I'm paying it forward, Ernesto, I'm paying it forward.
Yeah, man, let's pay it forward. And so that's how my relationship with kindness began right there in that setting, in solitary confinement. Every time I did something for someone, I told them that you just pay it forward. When you find someone that you can help and be kind to, you just pay it forward.
That's how you pay it back. And so we would get people a TV books and helping them with their homework assignments. I started to say there's a world outside of the gang. There's a world outside of solitary confinement. There's a world outside of prison. Hey, there's a world outside of the life that I was born into.
I have hope for my own redemption. I left my kids behind. I failed as a father. I did all these things in my community, but I can find redemption. And I thought, what if I become a youth counselor? Then I could pay it back and pay it forward. What I didn't give to my daughters. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna become a youth counselor one day.
And so I just continued Jaclyn, I continued on that path, and Doug and Leah were always in my ear, whispering, all those positive things, all those words of encouragement being kind to me, loving on me. And I knew there was hope because there was people like that existed. It wasn't just on tv. Mm-Hmm.
where you saw the Hallmark movies and, and all that kind of thing. People like that were real because Mm-Hmm. . It was happening in my life. And in 2015, December, I was doing college. I got my G D I was doing a, a N a, I mean, I was doing so many things back there. The officers were talking about me because I was getting all the other guys involved in there.
I found Gogi is getting out by going in there. And that program, you're able to become a certified peer coach. So I thought, Hey, if I want to be a youth counselor, I probably got to become a peer coach. That's probably a step closer, closer to my goal. And so the prison officials were seeing everything I was doing.
And then, so after the hunger strikes, they had this, uh, the DRB. where they were starting to let guys out. And so my case came up, and they sat me in this room with all these prison officials, the warden and, and the captain, all these different people. And they're like, Rodriguez, how do you feel about being released to the general population?
And I said, oh, well, that'd be nice. He said, well, we're going to release you. And he said, and while we're releasing you, I want you to think about something. There's new laws coming into effect where you can probably even go home. I'm like, ah, come on, you're, you're, you're pulling my leg. Just let me out of the shoe.
And I'm good with that, you know? And they're like, no, I'm serious. Keep doing what you're doing. He said, we're watching, we see everything, you're doing really good, keep doing what you're doing and you're probably going to go home. And at that point, I gave him a short testimony about all the stuff that I have been through, the decisions I made and why I decided to change and to summarize all that, I said, I just want to keep doing what I'm doing because it's the right thing to do in my life today.
And they were just looking at me like, Man, we don't know what's going on with you Rodriguez, but keep doing what you're doing. And so December of 2015, I was released from solitary confinement. It was before Christmas, I think two days before Christmas. And they sent me to the prison where everything had started.
High Desert State Prison. Wow. And I got to that prison and I said, Oh man, this is why back here, the two days after I was raised, I probably saw one of the worst stabbings I ever saw in my whole prison experience. It was, I had nightmares that night about that, that observation. And I remember thinking to myself, what can I do to change?
And I didn't know exactly what the answer was, but I said to myself, one thing, you got to shock these people. I said, one thing that got my attention was kindness. I said, I'm just going to shock these people with kindness. And so that was my strategy. I started to make spreads and food and bring people together.
I started talking about programs. I started talking about Gogi, how people can become certified peer coaches. And that, they didn't have any programs at that time. Feather River College was the college that I was doing my, my education. And, um, Kelly Connor Hall was my contact person. She's the one that got me in college when I sent her that testimonial letter and picture.
And so I wrote to her and I said, Hey, what about if we start a college tutoring program here? I said, right here, these guys are all, they're all into their politics. They don't want to mix with race and all that. I said, but probably a way around that. is tutoring inmates that have problems with their college classes.
That would be an excuse to be able to cross racial lines. And be able to, you know, to communicate and, and, and share experiences, exchange experiences with these guys. And it, but in the back of my mind, I said, that would be an act of kindness that would break those barriers too. And the college was the perfect, the perfect template because guys wanted to do the college.
So we sat down and we talked and they loved my idea. So a few months later, guess what's happening tutoring
Jaclyn: college, college kids. I was
Ernesto: touring whites, browns, blacks. It didn't matter what color you were. The gang shot colors. We're not going to say no to that. And I was crossing all the racial lines. And next, you know, I got Gogi there.
I started to run programs. So the officer started to notice all that. They started to notice the tutoring thing. And next, you know, the warden, the associate warden, the CRM, all these people come wanting to talk to me. And next, you know, program explodes at High Desert. We got Kogi there. We got AVP there. We got college tutoring programs.
It just changed, Jaclyn. The culture there, you could see that people had hope. Then Senate Bill 261 passed. And now people are talking about, like, we can go home now after, you know, through the BPH process, which is the Board of Parole hearing process. And you could see that hope was just exploded in that place with kindness being at the center.
People started to help each other with their classes. People started to go to classes together, regardless of what racial background you were. I mean, so many things, then ARC went to that yard and so many things started to happen. And that's when I learned the power of kindness. It doesn't matter how harsh or how hard a setting is.
Kindness can change the physical world. You, you do one act of kindness to someone and they don't understand it at first, but it's in, it's in, it's intoxicating. They, they want more of it. Why is this guy? What's the angle? What's the string attached here? And once they see that there's no angle or a string, they, they team up with kindness.
They join kindness. They say, you know what? I'm going to pay it forward as well. Yeah. And so that was the first setting that I was able to experience the power of kindness.
Jaclyn: In prison.
Okay. So, I mean, just so many things, so many parts of your journey. Um, tell us, I know there's been a lot since, but I know this particular year, 2023, Has been a big, big one for you. So tell us, you began doing it there. I know it's spread. Where are you at today? Where are you calling in from? What are the huge defining milestones that have happened in 2023?
And then I want to know what's next for this work with kindness.
Ernesto: Right. So before I can answer that question, I have to just give a little bit right before I was released from prison, which was September 6th. uh, 2023. It was on a Wednesday. I was at California Men's Colony. In that place, I was a captain's clerk.
And what that means is, a captain's clerk is probably the most trusted inmate in the facility that basically assists the supervisors of anything that happened at that facility went through my desk. Everything. Wow. Everything changed from Wanted to do the opposite of what I had done back in solitary confinement.
And I remember that at first I felt like I was an imposter, but then I walked into the person that I visualized me becoming and being in this world, a kind, understanding, giving, smart person that wanted to give my heart to the world and, and make amends. So I'm released in September 6. 2023. And honestly, Jaclyn, it's been like a fairytale.
But I have to pinch myself sometimes. Because I'm here in my office. It's a nice office and I'm working for a kind for restoration, which is a subdivision of the choose kindness foundation. And what we do is that we help adults in custody, uh, with programs such as the mindful kindness program, insight development.
And we're working on other programs. I'm the program developer. Uh, here at Camp for Restoration. So we're developing all of these programs to help the people on the inside who need help. And kindness is the centerpiece of what we do. Activating kindness in every prison setting is one of our main goals. I mean, I hit the ground running.
I'm already, I'm already enrolling in my master degree program for the MFT, the, and the clinical counseling. Um, I've been working for the account for time for restoration. I've been involved in other programs crop, which is the ready for life, uh, training. And I've been mentoring people everywhere I go.
That's pretty much my situation right now. And what we're seeing in the future is now that I'm out here, I'm able to see the whole process because I'm walking through it of what it takes to be released. And then. re enter into our community. A lot of people have scarce, uh, resources. Sometimes people have a hard time finding a job.
Or maybe because they're needing to work to make ends meet. They're not continuing their education. So what we're planning to do is get into the re entry arena as well.
My vision that I have is remembering that kindness can change the lives and can change the world. So if we shift and get involved in the re entry with transitional housing, vocational training, education, addiction counseling, mental health, And other groups, as far as, uh, anger management, mindful kindness, domestic violence, I feel like that will holistically assist people from the inside to transition to our communities with kindness.
If we're able to walk these people through that process, then my vision is that they'll pay it forward. By being kind to, you know, our community. There's a lot of people that are homeless out here. There's a lot of people who are selfish out here. There's a lot of people who believe that being kind is just not possible, but I've been breaking those barriers.
Yes. So that is my, that is my dream that we're able to get into the reentry in order to walk people through that process and through the, through that process. And what will happen is that, we'll, we'll inspire people how important and how helpful kindness is. Because if we can get one person to be kind and, and, and buy in on that concept, lemme tell you.
I've been one person. Right. And I have multiplied. I can't even remember how many people I've, I've assisted already in my walk of change. And just if one person can pay for and change a hundred lives. then that job is worth, well worth the effort. Yes. Um, you know, anybody can be a, a, a Ernesto. Anybody can be a jacket.
We just have to put the time and the effort to love on that person and be kind to that person and show them what it looks like because a lot of the people don't know what that looks like. They've experienced all kinds of trauma. So all they know to survive is what they know. And it's mostly all negative.
And all they have to do is see an act of kindness. And you don't know how many times that can be multiplied. And that's how we change the world one person at a time. So that's what the future entails. Doug and Donna are supportive of my ventures. We're already, we're already working on, on some things.
Jaclyn: Oh, Ernesto, what a journey.
Um, I'm so inspired by you and honored that you would share your story. Um, There's so much that you have said, and I know there's going to be so many takeaways for people. I'm curious if you had to sum up what you have discovered on this long journey. I mean, what talk, you know, talk about the ups and downs and.
The harrowing aspects to the beautiful aspects and the goodness and redemption and restoration. There's just so many themes of what you've showed, showed us of what's possible, but I'm curious if you had to say like the sum of like what it is in a sentence that you would want people to take away. What, what would it be for you?
Ernesto: I would say stay in the present and be willing to be kind. You never know whose life you'll be able to transform with just one act of kindness.
Jaclyn: There we go. One act of kindness. Um, we I I'm going to transition us to like the next part of the segment and we're going to start wrapping up but um, I just want to hold space for all of your Story because I know there's so much, there's so much you have to offer us and for us to learn from, and this has been, um, I'm leaving very uplifted, but I know there was a lot of darkness that you had to walk through to get to the light.
So I just want to honor all of that and just want to know if there's anything else that you would want to say or share before we move forward.
Ernesto: Yes. I would say in that same spirit of staying in the present, I would say, always try to make time for a listening ear. You never know when someone is going through something, or maybe even if a word of encouragement could just get, help them to cope through that situation of whatever it is that they're going through.
People out here are hurting. People out here are struggling. And just one moment of a listening ear, in our busyness of our day, can help someone just get by. Sometimes people, they just need to be asked. You never know. You can, you can help prevent a bad decision. So that's a, that's an act of kindness too.
Jaclyn: I love that. We like to ask guests if you could get everyone to do an act of kindness, what would it be? And so it sounds like we want everyone out there listening to listen and to pay attention and to check in with someone and ask how they're doing and be willing to be that present listening ear for them.
And I love that so much. Um, we're so distracted. There's so much out there to take our attention away from the person right in front of us, and, uh, I do think it's an important reminder that people would be willing to do that, so thank you for that, and I want to celebrate you, so, you're married, congratulations.
Just one final thought that I think so many people would be curious about is Have you had closure to your previous life? You know, how does it work being able to publicly talk about gang life and criminal life and all of that? Do you have any connection there and what? Yeah, just any final thoughts on how you've closed those chapters out?
Ernesto: Yes, uh, one of, one of the main things that I have to say that was helpful for me to be able to talk about my experience in a healthy way. Was that I got help. Um, and what that means is that I went through counseling therapy. I went to a lot of self help programs. The in person stuff is the best help because talking about it, getting the stuff, getting that stuff out, getting some support, some feedback, and just writing about it as well.
There was a time in my life where I thought asking for help was a weakness, but. It's been my greatest strength now. And so, when I decided to get help and get counseling and therapy and talk about all of the stuff that I went through, over time, it lost its power over me. Because for so many years, it consumed me.
And I tried to hide it and sweep it under the rug so that nobody saw that, the vulnerable me. But when I was able to become more and more and ask for that help and talk about it, I gained an inner strength that has assisted me to overcome so many challenges, uh, inside and outside of prison. It did more than change my life.
It transformed my life.
Jaclyn: Yes. I love that. It's perfect. It's a perfect way to bring us to a close Ernesto. Um, And the final thing we like to do is to end on action, to choose kindness, to remember that every act makes a difference. Every choice matters. Everything has the possible possibility of a ripple effect.
Um, so, um, we're part of a campaign. It's a call for kindness, actually. And we would love to invite you to think about someone you would want to call to say thank you or express gratitude. Um, you could call them now if you're comfortable or you could send them a text message. Um, or you can let us know who you're thinking of.
But we really just want to close on that action of letting someone know that we're grateful for them. So, is there anyone coming to mind?
Ernesto: Yes. Actually, yes. And there's a lot of people actually, but one person I really want to thank and, and, and, and give gratitude and homage to is my wife, Kathleen, because I'll tell you why none of this foundation stuff or kind for restoration stuff or work that we're doing would not be possible without her.
I had the ideas and the visions and the outline and all that and she made it happen. She, she did all the footwork to make it happen. She saw my vision. And she walked it through and today we're doing what we love because of that. And she's worked so hard. I mean, she used to visit me every weekend without missing one week.
And I used to say, Hey, you don't have to come every weekend. She would come drive from Riverside, Riverside, all the way to San Luis Obispo every weekend. And so I just really want to thank her and I want to take her out to dinner tonight.
Jaclyn: Yes, I love that. Do it. Um, how did you and Kathleen meet?
Ernesto: Oh, so when I got out of solitary confinement in December 2015, there was this guy, a friend of mine, um, when Senate Bill 261 passed and they said that we had to go through the parole process to get Found soon won't be released.
I didn't know what that was or what that was all about. So I started asking for help and asking questions. And so my friend said, Hey, I know someone that knows all about BPH and how to go through that process. And that's what she does. Her nonprofit helps people gain insight. in order to be found suitable for parole.
And so it was Kathleen. And so I wrote her a letter. I wrote her a letter and, uh, she says that I wrote her in, in, in December 2015, but I remember it was January 2016, but you know, tomato tomorrow. And, uh, so I wrote her a letter and I, again, in my recovery, I have a way of candor, candor and sincerity that where I just I don't hold back because I used to suppress so much and I just, I can't do that.
I will never do that. I just let it out. My spirit just comes out. So I wrote her and I told her, I basically told her, listen, I'm Ernesto. And I want to work on myself. I've been doing all of these programs and I feel like this law is, was designed for someone like me. I have two daughters who I love with all my heart.
I'm a person that has been broken. I've been going through the healing process and I've been changing and I'm doing the opposite of what I've been doing in my life in the past. Um, can you help me? I'll do it, whatever it takes. And she wrote me back with this program outline of who you were born to be, which is the first step.
And so I remember I, I took that outline and I wrote my heart out. I want, I wanted this so bad where I just, I think I wrote like 10 pages of that, who you were born to be, because it's a whole program outline. And I sent it to her. She says that letter changed her life. She said that she knew I was special.
She knew I was going to be something special, that I was going to do great things. And so all those years, we, we stayed in touch. She would help me. She would help my mom do like, my mom didn't know how to write support letters. So Kathleen helped so much. 2016, 17, 18, 19, 20.
All that time we were just friends and I would, we would stay in touch and she would help. And then, um, and then the Choose Kindness Foundation stuff came up when Doug and I started writing and he wrote, you know, created the foundation around, around my program outline and all that. And I remember thinking.
You know, I called Doug and I said, Hey, how are we going to get this started though? He was like, well, he said, you know, all the people you've done all the programs. I said, I do know a lot of people in organizations. I said, man, but who would want to get involved with this? He said, I don't know. You're, this is your area.
I said, yeah, man. And then I said, well, I'm going to go think about it and I'll call you back tomorrow or something. He's like, all right. And I sat down with myself, and I thought, and I thought, and then I said, Kathleen. She made it happen. That's amazing. She's the kindest person I know, and she works so hard.
So that's somebody I would want to call.
Jaclyn: Okay. Do you want to try to call her?
Ernesto: Yeah, I'll call her.
Jaclyn: Okay, let's do it. Yay!
Ernesto: Alright.
Kathleen: Hello?
Ernesto: Kathleen?
Kathleen: Hey.
Ernesto: Hey, how you doing?
Kathleen: Good.
Ernesto: Um, I'm here with the Why Kindness podcast and uh, so we're doing a random call here of someone, of someone I really want to thank. And pay homage to of, uh, the incredible person that you are. I was just sharing how we met and all the hard work that you did to create, you know, what we love doing.
I just want to tell you something and, you know, we talk every day, but I really want to tell you that I'm super, super grateful for you. And I'm even more proud of you because you're an extraordinary woman, an extraordinary person that is rare in this, in this world. The way that you express love and kindness to the people inside who need help.
Um, the way you give yourself completely, uh, to this work without wanting much in return. The way that you helped me and you understand, you're like the Ernesto whisperer, I would say. And, uh, I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for being an incredible person, even a better wife and just outright, just good person and kind person, keep doing what you're doing. And I like to take your dinner tonight.
Kathleen: Nice, it's a good thing I have this on recording.
Jaclyn: Hi Kathleen!
Kathleen: that's very kind of you. That's sweet of you to say all those things.
Ernesto: Yeah, and then uh, I'm right here with Jaclyn, say hi to Jaclyn.
Jaclyn: Hello! Hi Kathleen, hi, thank you for your work. This has been such an honor getting to hear Ernesto's story.
Kathleen: Yeah, he's pretty He's got a, he's got a, a lot of um, drive, motivation, and motivation. He's gonna be successful in anything that he does.
Jaclyn: Definitely. Definitely. With you at his side. Yeah. The best dynamic, too. Yeah. Amazing. Well, So great meeting you.
Ernesto: I love you, and I'll see you in a bit.
Kathleen: Okay, honey. I love you.
Ernesto: I love you too.
Jaclyn: Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of podcast, sponsored by our friends at Verizon.
To learn more about everything you heard today from our wonderful guests, definitely check out our show notes. We hope you're leaving this episode inspired and reminded that every kind act truly does make a difference. We'd love to hear how you're choosing kindness in your day to day. We write back to every email, so let us know what you think.
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