In this incredible, pivotal episode, Jaclyn speaks with mother and advocate Jacki James about the impacts of bullying, the loss of her teenage son to suicide, and how kindness has helped her shape the path forward.
Jacki James, founder of Kindness Matters, joins Jaclyn in this episode for an authentic and important discussion about bullying in schools, and how kindness can alter lives.
Trigger warning. This interview discusses a specific person's experience with bullying, suicide, and trauma.
Jacki James spent 28 years as a high school teacher and 4 years as the UIL Academics Coordinator for her campus. In 2014, she lost her 13 year old son, Peyton, to suicide after he’d been bullied for years. His death changed her focus and her path.
Through her grief, she created a program called Kindness Matters, which is a pro-kindness campaign whose mission is to change the world one act of kindness at a time. As the Founder of Kindness Matters, Jacki has worked to create a global change in how people treat each other. She has spread the Kindness Matters message and Peyton’s story to over 200 schools and student organizations across the country. She spearheaded the endowment of a scholarship in Peyton’s name at Texas A&M University School of Veterinary Medicine and has created a social media presence of over 50,000 followers where she reminds people of the “how” and “why” of kindness.
Because of her work through Kindness Matters, Jacki has been highly recognized. In 2019 she received the Legend Award from Recognize Good. the Ursa Major Award for Community Service from Alpha Phi International Fraternity in 2020 and has been honored by the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, the Texas Organ Sharing Alliance, Lone Star Circle of Life, and Nascar Xfinity for her efforts in suicide prevention and organ donation education.
She is now retired from teaching and dedicates her time to honoring Peyton and spreading the message that kindness truly does matter.
This podcast is one of the many ways we live out our organization's mission to educate and inspire people to choose kindness. Visit our site kindness.org and sign up to become a part of our global community which spans more than 100 countries. It's free to join and when you do you'll be the first to get access to our latest research, tools, and even episodes of this podcast. Let's build a kinder world, together. Contact us at podcast@kindness.org or on social at @kindnessorg.
Important links from this week's episode:
kindness.org
kindnessmatterspj.wixsite.com/kindnessmatters
Follow Jacki
IG: @kindness.matters
Facebook: @kindnessmatters13
Credits
Host: Jaclyn Lindsey
Guest: Jacki James
Producer: Melissa Malone
Music Composition: Chris Christiana
Design: Ben Gibson, Christine Do
Transcript of this episode can be found here: whykindness.simplecast.com/episodes/jacki-james/transcript
Jacki James Transcript
Trigger Warning: Trigger warning. This interview discusses a specific person's experience with bullying, death by suicide, and trauma.
Jaclyn: Kindness.
Intro: Why kindness? Because it makes a difference. For connection. Kindness can change lives. It's contagious. The science says you'll be glad you did. Kindness is beautiful. The key to a healthier, happier world.
Jaclyn: Why kindness while no one answer is the same. One thing is clear. Kindness is something we all know, but do we know why it matters? I'm your host, Jaclyn Lindsay, co founder, CEO of kindness. org, and you're listening to why kindness. Hi friends. Welcome to an episode of the why kindness podcast. This is a difficult conversation that we're going to have today and incredibly important one.
I met Jacki just a few weeks ago, and it was kindred spirits. The moment I sat down with her, her story is raw and real and necessary for everyone, parents and non parents alike to hear, because it's a reminder of why kindness matters and is so essential for the world we're in.
I'm going to read a little bit about who Jacki is and then welcome her to the show. And we're going to learn more about her story and why kindness matters to her. Jacki James spent 28 years as a high school teacher and four years as the UIL academics coordinator for her campus. In 2014, Jacki lost her 13 year old son Pete into suicide after he'd been bullied for years.
His death changed her focus and her path. Through her grief, she created a program called Kindness Matters, which is a pro kindness campaign whose mission is to change the world one act of kindness at a time. As the founder of Kindness Matters, Jacki has worked to create a global change in how people treat each other.
She has spread the Kindness Matters message and Peyton's story to over 200 schools and student organizations across the country. She spearheaded the endowment of a scholarship in Peyton's name at Texas A& M University's School of Veterinary Medicine, and has created a social media presence of over 50, 000 followers, where she reminds people of the how and the why of kindness.
She is now retired from teaching and dedicates her time to honoring Peyton and spreading the message that kindness truly does matter, which is what we will get into during this incredible, extraordinary interview with Jacki today. With that, I'd like to welcome Jacki James to the Why Kindness podcast.
Hi, Jacki. How are you?
Jacki: Hello. I'm doing well. Well, I'm very happy to be here.
Jaclyn: I'm honored to have you here. Where are you calling in from?
Jacki: I live in Round Rock, Texas, which is a little bit north of Austin.
Jaclyn: Okay.
Jacki: We say, they say, like, ground rock is north of weird. As you know, Austin's motto is keep Austin weird.
So we're north of weird.
Jaclyn: North of weird. I like that. We open every episode with this big question, why kindness? So I'm going to start there. And what would you say to why kindness?
Jacki: You know, I've thought about that a lot because of course, you know, just since talking with you and also since creating Kindness Matters, my immediate answer is, first of all, why not?
But then secondly is that it's, I think it's so much easier to just be nice to people. Being mean is hard and it takes a lot of energy and a lot of stress and planning and all that. And it's just so much easier to just be kind to people. You know, what my mother used to tell me is still very true. If you don't have anything nice to say- Shut up. Don't say anything. And that's a pretty easy rule to live by.
Jaclyn: Did you grow up in Texas?
Jacki: I did. I grew up in the woodlands. Well, Conroe, Texas, which is north of Houston. And my mother, we call my mother, the spicy Italian.
Jaclyn: So we know a little bit from your bio about your story and, and your heart and dedication to kindness.
But I want to take us back a little bit more to the beginning, even before Peyton, having Peyton, tell us a little bit about what life was like for you.
Jacki: We grew up in the country kind of out in the middle of nowhere. You know, when all my friends were sneaking out, I could have snuck out, but there was just nowhere to go.
Because, you know, it was a mile to the nearest major street. So that was not really a thing. My mother worked off and on. She owned a dancewear store. My father was a policeman. My sisters and I were both Very involved in dance and drill team and that sort of thing, you know, in junior high and high school.
It's a big thing in Texas. Football games, you know, the typical traditional high school. It was, it was pretty good. My friend and I, we both say that we were popular by default. Because all of our friends were the popular people, but we were just kind of like in the background. But I mean, I had a good high school education, graduated, went off to college, you know, started teaching.
Actually, teaching was not my first career. I have a degree in business administration, and so I went into the real Real world and worked for a while. And I worked, I remember waking up one morning, we were having this dilemma at work and it was over something so dumb. And I remember waking up going, this is so stupid and nobody's going to care about this in five years.
So I kind of reevaluated and my oldest sister, Janet was a teacher. Her husband was teacher. And I had always been the other Geordie girl, the third Geordie girl. And so I had resisted going into education. Well, both of my sisters also went to Kilgore College and were rangerettes, which is a dance, a drill team.
And I didn't go because I didn't want to be the third Geordie girl.
Jaclyn: And so I'd kind of resisted all of the things that were expected of me. And then I realized, you know, you need to be a teacher. This is what you're supposed to be doing.
Jaclyn: Hmm.
Jacki: So. I moved back in with my parents. That was interesting. Went back to school, got my teaching credentials and started teaching and Klein high school.
I taught high school English, taught freshmen for many, many years. And through the course of my teaching career is where I met my, my now ex husband, but met my ex husband. He was also a teacher and a football coach and we, I was a cheerleader sponsor. So, you know, we just kind of. Met each other that way.
Kind of had a three year up and down, off and on, finally got married in 1999. Peyton was born in 2000, you know, we did the whole. White picket fence bought the house the whole thing. And it was great for a while.
Jaclyn: Yeah
Jacki: and things just didn't work out and got divorced and Peyton was with me primarily and Things were great.
And he was the funniest kid. He was also well, he was going going back to his birth When he was born, I was very, very sick. I had full blown eclampsia, you know, the whole thing. I spent three weeks in the hospital before he was born during tropical storm. I think it was Allison, the one that completely shut Houston down.
Like the, we, our kitchen, the host hospital kitchen flooded. Nobody could get anywhere. It was just a nightmare. But Peyton was born a little, almost nine weeks early and he weighed two and a half pounds when he was born. He spent 35 days in the NICU, had the most amazing nurse. Her name is Melissa and we're still friendly, you know, and she had a little boy who was born about the same time.
So she just, boy, you talk about. Mama bear in the form of a nurse, you don't mess with the NICU nurses. Cause you don't touch their babies. But she was amazing and so helpful and got him home and, you know, life changed and all of a sudden not only hurt you a mom, but your mom too, a fragile. Child.
Cause he was, you know, he was, he didn't have any real issues. He was just tiny. He, he came home, didn't even weigh four pounds. Wow. My dad being a former Houston police officer, he had joked the week before saying, let me call some of my buddies. We'll get you a police escort home. And I remember the morning, the day of when they're like, you can take him home today.
I called my dad. I'm like, Hmm. So are you serious about that? And he said, no. But he did come and like, he escorted us home.
Jaclyn: Oh, I love that.
Jacki: I was terrified.
Jaclyn: Yeah, that first drive home is, yeah,
Jacki: especially through Houston.
Jaclyn: Oh yeah, I don't know the traffic, but I can, I can imagine.
Jacki: Crazy. And it was about an hour
Jaclyn: Oh,
Jacki: to our house from the hospital.
But yeah, it was so, you know, everything was great. And Peyton was funny and, you know, hit all of his milestones and did all the, all the things they're supposed to do. Great. I had great neighbors who had a great little neighborhood. But in 2008, my mother had a stroke. And so that left a lot of that responsibility on me of caring, you know, getting that late night phone call when mom had something had happened.
And it was hard being single with a elementary school age kid.
Jaclyn: How old was Peyton at that time?
Jacki: He was seven.
Jaclyn: Okay.
Jacki:And he was like, we were all actually together when she had the stroke. Okay. We were walking into a restaurant and so Peyton saw everything.
Jaclyn: Oh, wow.
Jacki: And I remember there was a waiter at this restaurant that they had partitions kind of between the booths and he took Peyton around one of those partitions and sat there and colored with him.
Jaclyn: Wow.
Jacki: While the, they did all the things with my mom. So that was like, you know, a little, little glimpse of kindness before I even knew was something I was needing.
And then, so mom was in assisted living after that. She couldn't move home. My dad was not well, he had emphysema and COPD and he passed away in 2010.
And that left me in Houston, sole caregiver basically to my mother. And it was a lot and it was just too much for me. So we moved her here to Round Rock where my sister was, cause she had a husband and kids who could stay home by themselves and, and that sort of thing. But then I was in Houston with no family.
And so I came here the summer of 2010, Peyton and I just kind of moved close to my sister and, and things, you know, just kind of it. Change things. My mother she did pass away in 2012.
Jaclyn: mm-Hmm, .
Jacki: But, you know, we got to spend a lot of really great time with her. And because we were so close that every, every Tuesday we would go take mom tacos, , and every, you know, every couple of days there's a place here called Round Rock Donuts that are delicious.
I mean, the best, they're orange, which is kind of weird, but they're the best donuts you've ever eaten in your life. And so we would bring my mom. And it was kind of a thing she had with Peyton and they were, you know, so we, we just, things were great and well, things were okay. not so great for Peyton.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
So if you're open to sharing even about your own experiences with kindness before seeing it through Peyton's eyes, was kindness something that was important to you? Did you grow up with it as like a template for life? And even I know some people have talked about like Texas and South and Southern hospitality and like these expectations, but what was your understanding of kindness leading into motherhood?
Jacki: I didn't, honestly, I didn't really put a name on it. I didn't really label it as kindness. I just knew how you were supposed to treat people. My parents had instilled that in us you know, the be nice and be kind. And, you know, we're, are Southern, so please. And thank you. And yes, ma'am. And yes, sir. And those sorts of things were not, they were not optional.
You know, those are things you just did. And all my friends. You know, that was how we were raised. I do think, you know, I grew up down the street from my cousin, and she and I were very close. She were very close in age. You know, so I kind of think back about all the times we spent as family. Just, you know, her family would come down or we'd go to their house and have help, you know, the dads would help each other with chores or whatever.
I was thinking about this the other day, of remembering kindness when I was a child. It's not something I can really pinpoint one event except there is one. This is so silly. There's one time I think I was Seven or eight years old and my oldest sister Janet and I oh my gosh. We did a photo shoot And so Janet was the photographer and she dolled, you know, fixed my hair and put me in the right, you know, this cute little outfit and we're all over our property taking pictures of me, you know, blowing a dandelion and holding a day lily.
And now I look at the pictures now and I think, Oh my gosh, those are so dorky. But it was, you know, Janet was six years older than me. And so the fact that she spent. So much time and it was hours. She spent such a day with me just to make me feel special. She continues to do that. She is you know, kind of my biggest cheerleader.
My sister, Jennifer, the same thing. Jennifer and I would just, you know, but it was just kind of this built in kindness. It wasn't really go be kind at this moment. Right, right. No, it was just kind of always there.
Jaclyn: Yeah. Yeah. And so Peyton, tell us about, you know, I want to start at the earliest years. So, you know, getting into school, what was he like heading into kindergarten?
Jacki: Well, Peyton was precocious, silly, and just so smart. And I know everybody says that about their kid, but he was so ridiculously smart. His father and I were both English teachers. So we, we kind of joke and say he was reading before he was born. He didn't have a choice.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Jacki: But we, God, he started reading books with words when he was about three.
Wow. Maybe two and a half. When he was six, seven years old, he brought me one of the Harry Potter books. Wow. And he's like, can I read this? And I'm thinking that book weighs more than you do, but okay. And he read it and it wasn't me guiding, he would read them to me and I'd help him with some of the words and some of the names.
But it wasn't until we got to the part with the dementors, you know, those things that fly around and they suck your soul out of your face or something like that. They got scared and put it and put them down. So he was this crazy reader. And you know, I think. Studies show, too, that, you know, when you read a lot, you have a larger vocabulary, changes your knowledge, your intellect, and so he was just this very, very curious about everything.
But also had a fantastic imagination and could make believe about anything at all. But yeah, he was, he was just a really very all around good kid, starts elementary school. He was five in kindergarten and things were okay at first until about second grade. And, and he did very, very well in school. His teachers loved him.
He loved school. He loved learning. He had some really cute little friends and, you know, just, he was, very excited every day to go to school. My school where I was working was right across the parking lot from his school. And so he would come to work with me. Our secretary, our department secretary, she had an office aide, and that office aide would walk him across the camp, across the parking lot to school because his school started later than mine.
And oh, he thought he was such a big deal. And he, he did very, very well. And, you know, he did, he was a really good student and enjoyed Second grade is when things kind of got sticky and Peyton had red hair, he had freckles, he wore glasses. He was a nerd, you know, he, he wasn't, he didn't like sports and we put him in all the sports and he hated all of them except karate.
You know, he just, he was the kid in the baseball team that was out in the outfield picking flowers, you know, or watching ants on the ground that, that was him. That is kind of when he started, when he became a target. Because he was different. He was a nice, respectable kid and kids started picking on him very early.
Jaclyn: What was the process of you learning about those experiences? Was he telling you the school telling you the school?
Jacki: His teacher contacted me. Of course, you know, we both worked in the same district. We were, you know, colleagues. And so she would let me know and I would ask Peyton about it. And, you know, so what happened today with such and so and what and it he would tell me but he really just kind of took it in stride.
You know, it wasn't until about, I guess, probably third grade that things started getting, he really started getting upset about it because it was, it was all the time. And it wasn't at that point, it was a group of boys, a couple of little girls, but he just really, until we moved here. when we were in Houston, he just kind of took it in stride and didn't let it bother him because he had plenty of friends and still had, he just, I, it would, it changed when we moved here.
He was nine.
Jaclyn: Okay.
Jacki: So what is that? Fourth grade, I think. And fourth grade.
Jaclyn: Leading up to that time before then you, it largely seemed like relentless harassment and, and he was, Oh, he was dealing with it the best he could. So it wasn't impeding quite yet.
Jacki: Right. Not at that point. And of course I had told him, you know, what all parents tell their kids, Oh, let it roll off your back.
Don't worry about it. You're going to be that kid's boss someday. You know, just probably didn't take it as serious as I should have at the time. But at the time I thought it was just typical. Yeah. School yard garbage. So we moved here to Round Rock and now you throw in the fact that he has all those other things but now he's also the new kid.
He did meet one boy his very first day of school. He met this young little boy named JP and they became fast friends and JP is just, he's still just this quirky and interesting, you know, young man now but they were friends, you know, forever. At the new school, that's when it got really bad because there was one boy in particular and there was a group, a little gang of them, about maybe four or five of them that followed this one particular kid.
And for whatever reason, that kid just had it in for Peyton, made Peyton's life absolutely miserable for two years, well, longer than that. And again, when it started, you know, I kind of told Peyton, just, Don't worry about it, you know, and then it got, it went from name calling and teasing and embarrassing him to physical, physical violence and it started small.
He would throw rocks at Peyton at recess, or he would bring rocks in. I remember very clearly they were in music class. And this boy was throwing little pebbles at the back of his head, and the teacher didn't notice, and Peyton turned around and yelled at him, and then Peyton got in trouble. So that was kind of my first real incident that I thought, this is really Something bigger than I think it is.
So went to the teacher, you know, cause Peyton told me what was had happened. I went to the music teacher and his classroom teacher, and they were like, okay, we'll keep an eye on it. And it, it just, he just changed tactics. He tripped him going down the stairs one day would steal his, he, my father, after my father died.
Well, before my father died he had given Peyton his iPod, and this boy stole it. We couldn't, he never admitted it. Peyton says he saw him do it. It vanished. The watch that we had given him vanished, and it was always when this boy was around Peyton's desk. Culmination of all of that was Peyton had had an ear infection, and he went back to school after, you know, Being cleared and the boy, I guess he told somebody that he had an ear infection and the boy came up behind him And he put his hand over Peyton's ear and smacked it and he ruptured his eardrum.
Every one of these times I went to school I was that crazy mother Screaming, hollering, banging table, you know banging my fist on the table. Every time I was told we'll handle it It'll get better. He needs to get thicker skin. It's not as bad as you think. I was just, it was, it was swept under the rug.
They didn't want to deal with it. It wasn't until the eardrum situation that there's a law in Texas, and it was relatively new at the time, that if in a bullying situation, the victim's family, the victim can have the bully removed. Because their, their solution at the time was, oh, we'll separate them in the same classroom.
They just put one on one side, one on the other side. That does nothing. That's pointless. So we pursued having this boy moved. We had to get an attorney involved. It was not pretty. Basically I'm like, y'all need to protect him.
Right. This is. It's, it's become physically, he's physically attacking him.
He's going to really hurt him. Right. And not only that, but you know, with the eardrum situation, we had medical bills.
It was, it was quite an ordeal. And then he was, through all of this, he got to be where he didn't want to go to school. That was fifth grade. Of course, then they move on to sixth grade to a different campus and now they're changing classes.
So, we made sure they weren't in class together, but you can't control what happens in the hallways. And as a teacher, I know we try, but we can't see all the nooks and crannies of everything, and it just magnified. And about that time, Peyton started having a whole lot of stomach problems, and they diagnosed him with IBS, and possibly Crohn's disease.
Now I look at it and realize, it was stress. And I didn't know enough to put those two things together. This whole time, especially in, in middle school, I was asking the counselor, Could you get me and Peyton and that boy and his mother together with the counselor? Let's talk about this. Let's figure out.
What is the problem? Did Peyton do something way back in fourth grade? You know, what's the catalyst for all of this animosity? And the boy's mother wanted absolutely nothing to do with it. I know I had met her one time at a school function where her son, Peyton had come up and was talking to me and her son came up and said, oh, is this your mom?
And Peyton goes, yeah, and he goes, she's fat. And the lady next to me laughed. That was his mom. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree. So she didn't want to have anything to do with it. She wasn't interested. She thought, you know, he's just being funny. It's just, you know, he doesn't mean it. Peyton needs to grow up.
Peyton needs to get, be tougher. You know, your child is abusing my child. And, and I just couldn't get the help that I needed. There's no, there's no manuals. And, you know, this was, At this point, this was about 10 years, 11 years ago, there were no laws. There were, you know, every school district had the no place for hate, but what does that mean?
Jaclyn:Right.
You know, there, there's no, there's no penalty to this kid for tormenting another kid.
And all of the solutions seem to fall on me and Peyton in seventh grade, I guess. That's when Peyton, that's when he started to say things. And at first it was when he'd gotten in trouble or he didn't want to do his homework or, you know, whatever.
And he'd say, I don't want to be here anymore. Or you would be so much better off without me. You know, the, you know, people don't, I don't need to be here. I want to die. And at first his father and I both thought he was just, you know, I don't want to be in trouble. So I'm going to say this horrible thing.
And Cause everybody jumps through all sorts of hoops when you say stuff like that. And finally there was one night and I had told him before, I said, the next time you say something like that, I'm taking you to the hospital. And I did because he'd said those same things and I packed him up and we went to the emergency room only to discover that emergency rooms really at the time didn't deal with mental health issues.
They, Looked at him, said he's physically fine, call a therapist. So we did, got him into therapy and he saw this therapist once a week for a year. I don't really know that it helped a whole lot. And, and now again, you know, hindsight is 20 20 I should have found a different therapist. I should have found somebody that would be, you know, because she just kind of let him talk the whole hour.
She, I don't, of course I wasn't in there for most of it, but I don't really know that there was a whole lot of teaching of coping skills of that sort of thing. And I don't know but I probably should have found somebody different. And again, I didn't know, I didn't, I didn't know what I didn't know.
Jaclyn: Right.
You know, that, that kind of seemed to make him feel better because he had somebody else besides mom in his corner and because he used to tell me too, and I would tell him when he would say those things and I'm like, honey, I love you so much. And he's like, mom, you have to say that you're my mom.
And so I would say, no, you're right. I'm your mom and I do love you, but here's why, here are the reasons that I love you. And I would lay it all out. But, you know, when you're 12 or 13, what your mom says doesn't matter anymore. You know, she's not the most important person in your life anymore. And it pains me to say that.
But it just continued and it was really this one group of boys and the school just, you know, business as usual. The boy's mother didn't really care about it at all. And, you know, we tried to just have as much of a normal life as we could. Peyton had friends. He had a handful of friends and he didn't have a lot of friends.
He had about five kids that he was really, really close with. He had a girlfriend for a short while, a girl named Kessie. They had a couple of dates went to a school dance together. I took them to the movies. They did, there was another one point we went over. It was, I think it was before the dance.
We went over to her family's house for dinner. So I got to meet her parents and all that. And when I picked him up afterwards, He gets good. They both have these grins. He's like Chesire cat grins on their faces. I was like, so how was it? Did you have fun? And Peyton goes, Mom! I'm like, yes. He goes, I kissed her!
Twice! And she's just sitting there grinning. And I was like, oh, well that's nice. And in my head I'm thinking, oh my god, he's 12! I was freaking out. So we get to her house to drop her off, and I had told him, you know, walk her to the door, you know, that, be a gentleman, that kind of thing, and he's up there for 10 minutes.
And I'm thinking, oh my god, are they making out on the front step? Hopefully not. And he gets back in the car, and I said, so, What took you so long? He goes, I was talking to her dad. I said, I want to ask. He goes, I told him too.
Jaclyn: Oh my gosh.
So when I got home, I texted her, called his dad and, or Kessie's dad. I'm like, I'm so sorry. And he said, I thought it was funny. I high fived him.
He was so proud. I kissed her twice. But so she was just this very sweet little girl and I have, I do have a couple of pictures of them together, you know, that I took and they just, you know, just as cute as they could be. At the end of seventh grade though, I got a new job and And we moved from Round Rock to Georgetown, which is It's 10 minutes away, but presented that to Peyton as it's over, you know, you don't ever have to see that kid again.
It's over. And we tried to continue with therapy that summer before eighth grade, but he was at his dad's for the summer and his father still lived in Houston and so didn't have a therapist there. So the therapy kind of got a little wonky. And then when we came back, his therapist got sick. And she'd kind of get, send us to other people sporadically, you know, so it was, it was, he didn't have that, that safety net, so to speak, started at the new school.
I'd pick him up from school every day and he would say, I'd say, how was your day? It was fine. How was your day? It was great. What'd you do today? You know, typical mom questions. And I thought things were okay. I knew he was struggling in some classes. He was struggling in Spanish and he was struggling in math, but.
You know, he's eighth grade. It's hard. He's taking algebra and it's hard and I could, I hate math. So I got it. But finally on October 8th, I picked him up. How was your day? What'd you do today? Oh, I went to science class, went to math class. I talked to the principal. I went to lunch and he just kind of glossed over it.
And I said, what were you, what, why were you in the principal's office? And he told me that there was a boy who had been bullying him for about a month. This was in October. So school had been in for, you know, six or eight weeks and Peyton had finally had enough and he'd reported it to the whoever. And so the next day that had happened the day before the next day, the principal called him in and they talked about it.
But according to the principal, they looked at the video and all he could see was a kid in a hoodie. Well, that's every kid, you know, so they, he couldn't identify who the boy was. So we said, we found out later that was not true. And again, he, he kind of told Peyton, nothing I can do, you know, just avoid him.
Handle it. And I asked Peyton in the car, I said, honey, why haven't you told me about this? He said, mom, you can't fix this. And I didn't know what to say because he was right. I hadn't fixed it. I was his mother. It was my job. I was supposed to fix it and I'd failed. And So then I made a huge mistake and I told him, sorry, I told him that maybe he'd overreacted.
Maybe it wasn't as bad as he thought. We got home he was 13 and he was angry. So I just let him go to his room, you know, before homework and chores and dinner and all that. Thought he needed a little time, you know, to kind of do whatever. And after about 15 minutes, I went to check on him and knocked on the door and he didn't answer.
So I knocked again and I pushed the door open
and I found him. He had hung himself. And at first I thought it was a joke. I didn't think it was real. And I somehow managed to get him down. And it's, I remember thinking, I've taken CPR classes as a teacher every year for almost 30 years. And I remember nothing. So somehow I got him down and I called 911 and they talked me through CPR.
The paramedics got there and the police got there and it was chaos. There was a victim, I guess he's a, an advocate, like a victim's advocate person that worked for Williamson County. And I want to say his name was Victor or Vincent and I can't, I might be wrong. He was amazing. And he, You know, I just handed him my phone and I'm like, here, call this person and call this person, my sister and my ex husband.
And after about 20 minutes or 30 minutes, they got, I guess they got his heart beating again and took him to a local hospital. When I got in there, My memories are not great. They realized that his injury was too severe. So he needed to go to the Children's Hospital in Austin to Dell. And it was five o'clock on a Wednesday and traffic was a snarl.
And so we went by helicopter. And I remember sitting in the helicopter thinking, God, Peyton would think this was so cool. We got him to Dell. The next time I saw him, he had tubes, you know, wires. All over his head and they were monitoring his brain activity. He was on a respirator and they kind of didn't really give us a prognosis.
Yet, wasn't, that was Wednesday. On Friday, they kind of told us that it was not going well. The injury to his brain was just too severe, and they weren't, they weren't sure if he was going to survive. And the funny thing is, at that point, all of my family had gotten there, except my oldest nephew, Taylor.
Taylor didn't get there till Friday night. After Taylor got there, that's when Peyton started to really drop. I think he waited. He waited for Taylor, because they were so close. I mean, they were just, they loved each other so much. And I think he was waiting for Taylor. And Saturday, they told us that it was not going to happen.
He was not going to survive, that the, the swelling was going down his brainstem and, There was nothing they could do. That's when the lady from Texas Organ Sharing Alliance came and talked to us. And I remember agreeing to it immediately because Peyton and I had actually talked about it the summer before and he thought it was really cool.
So we agreed to organ donation and corneas and skin. And I don't remember a lot. So he was Declared brain dead on October 13th at 12. 01 a. m. 2014. And that was, well, October 8th of that year was the last normal day for me. Everything's been very different since then. Oh, can I tell you one more part about it?
Jaclyn: Yes, of course.
Jacki: There was a nurse, his name was Earl. And he spelled it IRL, which in video game world means in real life. And he'd been Peyton's nurse, you know, off and on for a couple of days. And on Saturday was when they were doing the donation surgery. It was supposed to happen at 5. 30 or 5 o'clock, something like that.
And Earl's shift ended at 6. And the, that time came and went and they didn't take him for whatever reason. And Earl stayed seven o'clock, eight o'clock, nine o'clock, nine 30. They finally go to take Peyton back to surgery. And Earl had stayed the entire time. Off probably not getting paid. No. But my biggest concern, one of my biggest concerns when Peyton was in the hospital, was I didn't want him to be alone.
I was afraid he would wake up and he'd be alone. And Earl knew that. And so he stayed. And they took him down the hall. I remember, you know, it's like, it's like the, the horror movie where the hall just gets longer and longer. They were taking him down the hall and Earl's right next to him, hanging on, you know, helping to push the gurney, went into the operating theater with him.
stayed until the very last minute and came out. We had this orange blanket on him and he came out and brought us that blanket. And yeah, I mean, he just, he stayed the whole time just because he knew I didn't want Peyton to be by himself. And I mean, part of me says, who does that? And then it also kind of restores my faith in humanity a little bit, because there are people out there that.
work for three and a half extra hours for no pay just because they didn't want this mother to be sad. More sad than she already was.
And that's pretty remarkable. I am deeply indebted to him. He was a great man.
Jaclyn: So, sorry. Oh, Jacki. It's the unspeakable tragedy no mother should ever have to walk through.
And you've come out the other side and it's going to be a decade this year. Is that right? This is in October. In October. And I'm so sorry for your loss. You've chosen to take his life and legacy forward with a focus on kindness. Can you tell us a little bit about that decision?
Jacki: Actually it comes from that primary bully, the one from middle school. After Peyton died, his best friend was at school and she was crying. And that boy, Of course, they had made, I guess they made an announcement somehow, all the kids knew because this is, you know, Peyton wasn't at that school anymore.
We changed schools and that boy came up to her and he said, I'm not surprised that boy was a freak. And when, when her mother told me about that, I just remember thinking, what is wrong with you? That's just mean. I mean, there's, there's no. No satisfaction that you could have gotten from that comment.
That's just hateful. And so I remember I was sitting at my sister's kitchen table and we were talking about why he would do that. And then we realized, because you know, my sister and her husband are both educators too. We realized that we have taught kids since they were in Texas, we say knee high to a grasshopper about bullies.
This is what a bully is, this is what they look like, this is what they do, this is why you shouldn't be a bully. Kids can tell you what bullies do. But who's teaching these kids how to be nice to each other? Because clearly that boy did not have a very good role model. He didn't have anybody to show him, and if that, if that's how she was in public, Imagine what he got at home.
So he didn't have anybody to show him kindness and to show him that this is a better way to deal with things. Through this conversation, my sister had a magnet on her refrigerator that said, kindness matters. And I remember looking at it going, that's the key. If people had just been a little bit nicer to him.
Or just said nothing. You know, sometimes there's a great deal of kindness in saying nothing. Would things have been different? How would his life have turned out differently? So, I started a Facebook page. Really not expecting anything to happen with it. It was really just a place for me to be. Tell his story and share things that I found of people, you know, being kind to each other little tidbits of story here and there and it was really, I thought was just going to be my friends, you know, maybe 50 people after I went back to work, I was asked to well, actually before I went back to work, Peyton's little babysitter, his two babysitters, Blair and Marie put together a little fundraiser, a little walk.
And back in Houston, it was on Unity Day, which is something done through Pacer. We met in this park and so many people came from my, my job, from Peyton's old school, from my people I went to high school with, a couple of hundred people came just and another girl that I had gone with, she had had this t shirt made that said kindness matters on it.
And it was this orange t shirt with the logo has a sun and has blue eyes because Peyton had blue eyes. And we wore them to the walk, and people were like, Oh, I want one, I want one, I want one. So we ordered, you know, 50 shirts. I had posted something about it on the Facebook page, and then I was asked to speak at my school's No Place for Hate rally.
And that was the first public speaking that I had done. And it was in front of 1400 people, a little daunting, but it got picked up by the local news and people started joining the Facebook page. And then they started saying, Oh, I'd like a t shirt. I'd like a t shirt. So we found a t shirt company and had these t shirts made.
Then I started getting contacted by schools. Do you have a program? Could you come and talk to our kids? And I'm thinking, I don't have a program. I have a story. But, so I hastily put this program together with the help of my sister and some of my really great teacher friends. And my first school presentation was at Del Valle Middle School and their sixth grade and I was terrified, but it went great.
And it just kind of steamrolled from there. So anyway, kindness matters just kind of took off from there. And over the next few years, I did over 200 presentations mostly in Texas. I've been to Louisiana and New Jersey and Colorado. I've done it and one in Canada. So I'm, I'm international through that and through the fundraising and t shirt sales and all of that.
We were able to endow a scholarship at Texas A& M. Yeah, it started at 25, 000 and we raised that money in little almost four years. It took us about four years to do that. We got a great donation. This is another weird story. I told you talked to them all. My family and I, we had gone to see Jerry Jeff Walker.
At this. Place in nearby this little like dance hall. Jerry Jeff Walker is a eighties, you know, kind of country folks, you know, very, very popular kind of think of like George straight and that kind of, that kind of style. So we've gone to see Jerry Jeff Walker. And at one point I'm out in the lobby and I'm looking at the t shirts and all of that.
And this woman. I had a Kindness Matters wristband on and this woman asked me about it and she had this smoker's voice and she's this big around and we talked for 10 or 15 minutes and I told her about Kindness Matters. Well, it turns out she was Jerry Jeff Walker's wife and she was very intrigued, very interested in Kindness Matters.
So before I know it, we went and had met her one afternoon to talk about how they could help. She wanted, you know, and then I got to go to their house. and meet, like I'm walking in and there's Jerry Jeff Walker just sitting at the kitchen table and, and I'm like, hello, Mr. Walker. And he's like, just call me Jerry.
I'm like, no, I can't do that. I've listened to your music for 20 years. I can't call you Jerry, but they made a very nice donation to kindness matters to the scholarship and featured Peyton in his program at one of his concerts. And so that helped a lot to get the scholarship where it needed to be.
And You know, he passed a couple of years ago and it, you know, I still, Susan and I still, you know, we send Christmas cards and things like that. But, so we got the scholarship started. We've given away now, I think it's eight, eight or nine 1, 000 scholarships to people in the kids in the vet school.
Jaclyn: Wow.
Jacki: So, cause that's, you know, that's what Peyton wanted to do. And so that was my way of sending him to veterinarian school.
Jaclyn: It's amazing, Jacki.
I'm curious. If you can share what closure looks like, if anything, with the school, and we don't need to dwell on it, but just for, I'm sure so many like me, it's like the indignation and injustice and anger and all of that, and you've chosen a path of kindness for his life, but also from, like, the mom hat, what has that looked like for you?
Jacki: It's not really closure. Neither one of the school districts really did anything. It's forgiveness. I've just, you know, I realize, I try to tell myself that they did what they did, what they thought was right, in the moment. And I want to believe that that's what everybody does. They behave in a way that they think is the right thing in the moment.
I'm not mad anymore. Of course there was a time right after when, you know, I wanted to sue everybody and take everybody's jobs and, and all that. And I realize now that one, that's not going to bring Peyton back. It's not going to take away the pain and the sadness that I have. It's not going to fix that.
That's not justice. Instead, my version of justice is kindness matters. For every person that hears his story or sees something on social media or, you know, whatever and says, Oh gosh, I was that kid. Or maybe this is what my child is going through and I don't know it. That's justice for me.
Jaclyn: What would you say to parents who may be going through something like this, either, if they might know their child more, and I think even the words we use for things, but, is cruel, mean, and in their mind it's like, oh, they're just being kids, and then the parents who might have the child being bullied, what wisdom would you offer any of us who might be experiencing that?
Jacki: To the parents of the bullies. You have to pay attention. You can't, you know, if somebody says, Oh, Johnny said this horrible thing to my kid today, don't laugh it off. It's real. And it's starting earlier and earlier, younger and younger. Are these kids, you know, learning this nasty behavior. So you can't ignore it.
You can't, you got to talk to your kids and you have to model it for them. And so much of what, you know, kindness matters. We do focus a lot on schools, but it's a universal message that We, as adults, we have to model it for our children and for the young people to see, you know, cause if they don't know what it looks like, how are they kind of, unfortunately, I don't think that's just something you inherently know how to treat people.
So that would be my first thing to the parents of the bullies is pay attention, listen, believe what the teachers or the other parents or your kid's friends, you know, listen to them when they play. See how your child is treating them, and if it sits wrong with you, that's your responsibility to retrain them, because that's learned behavior.
And so, figure out how you can retrain them, and whether that be change who their friends are, you know, change where they hang out, change what they watch on TV, change how you interact with them, you know, whatever. figure out where it's coming from and change that. But you got to pay attention to the parents, like me, be the squeaky wheel.
It's okay. It's okay to be loud. It's okay to demand action. The school's number one job is the safety of your child, of every child. And if they're not doing that, they are failing at their job. Academics are secondary to that. If they're not supporting your child, protecting your child, putting them in an environment where they, because you know, kids, if they're tormented, they can't learn.
Be the squeaky wheel. Go all the way up the chain. I'm not saying skip over, don't go from the teacher to, you know, the president, but follow that chain of command. Keep copious notes. Detail records of everything. In some states, bullying is a crime. So, if it happens, file a police report. Do whatever you can.
Take the steps to end the bullying situation. But then you also have to deal with the emotional part of it. And that's where therapy comes in. And that can be, you know, I wish I had known then, Peyton would have really benefited probably from, like, animal therapy.
You know, some sort of equine or dogs or something like that, because he loved animals.
So, find the therapy that works for him, for your child, and for you. Don't be like me. Shop around. You know, if it's not a right fit, it's okay to find a new therapist, find somebody, find that place that does fit, find someone who will listen, be in your kid's corner, be there. You have to be their biggest supporter.
Even if inside you think they're overreacting, their feelings are valid. And these are all, these are my failings. These are things I didn't do. My biggest regrets. I should have been his champion. Instead of telling him, you're overreacting. I invalidated how he felt. And he thought it was never gonna end.
And if mom can't fix it, then nobody can fix it. And I think that contributed to why he did what he did.
Jaclyn: I know we're going to wind down soon and I could talk to you all day and I'm so honored and grateful you're sharing all this with us. Before we start to close, is there anything you would want to say about Peyton or you or your journey that you haven't gotten to share?
Jacki: Kindness Matters has been the best therapy for me. Being able to tell his story, being able to talk about him, kindness matters has saved my life.
Jaclyn: I think my first time meeting you and hearing your story and Payton's story, I think I left being reminded of the weight of our words. And, you know, yes, there were themes of the physical side, but it feels like what this really was, was the relentless taunting and meanness of names and, and words that were shaping who he was or what he believed or what he was going through.
And I think we do struggle to know what it means to be a bully, or we think of a bully in a very traditional sense, you know, someone in the schoolyard beating you up. But it's often lurking. It's, it's often the unseen things, you know, the things you can't tell in a video, what words are being said or what's being communicated.
Jacki: Well, if you think about it too, it's like erosion.
Jaclyn: Yes.
Jacki: If there's a drop and a drop and a drop and a drop, that's how we built the Grand Canyon.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Jacki: Well, that's how some, you know, that's how the Grand Canyon was formed. It wasn't overnight. It wasn't one thing. Yes. It's that series. Of negative, negative, negative, negative.
And when you have, you know, your mom in the background or somebody you love in the background saying you're great, but then 50 other people saying you're a loser, you know, it, it, it matters. Then the words that we choose matter so much. And that's one of the things we would do with our students and our presentations.
We would do little activities where we looked at the power of words. and how those words can shape you and stay with you for, you know, forever.
Jaclyn: Jacki, thank you for sharing today. We'd like to close to learn more about how we can show up choosing kindness in the world and bringing the work to life.
So I'd love to ask you if you were to define kindness in one word, what would you say?
Jacki: I can't do it in one word. First would be compassion. Second would be strength. Kindness is not weakness. It is, it makes you the most powerful person in the room.
Jaclyn: If you could get everyone around the world to do one kind act today, what would you want them to do?
Jacki: Listen. Just listen. And I actually, on my computer, I have a little post it that says, listen, because I'm, I'm, I'm working on that too, that I just, we just need to listen to each other.
Jaclyn: Are you reading anything right now that's inspiring you?
Jacki: I am. I just finished Matthew McConaughey's Greenlights, which I thought was wonderful.
I love looking at obstacles and turning them into pathways.
Jaclyn:Yes, I loved that book.
Jacki: I listened to it on audio, so I got the voice.
Jaclyn: Me too! I just just finished it on audible, actually. That's so funny. Yeah, I got the,
Jacki: yeah, you got the voice and all. You know, I could listen to him all day long. I just finished that one not too long ago, and I'm currently reading Nightingale by Kristen Hannah. And I'm only a few chapters in, but oh, it's good. Yeah. Set in World War II in France so far, and It's really good. I like her style.
Jaclyn: What do you think of when you think of kindness as a song? Anything come to you?
Jacki:As a song?
Jaclyn:Yeah. Music.
Jacki: Oh, gosh. I can't remember the name of the song. The chorus, though, is, says, We are one. We are love. We are how we treat each other. What's the name of that song?
Jaclyn: I bet we'll be able to find it with that as the chorus.
Jacki: We are how we treat each other when the day is done. And it's about, that's who we are. Your money, your power, your titles means nothing. You are how we are, how we treat each other.
Jaclyn: Oh, Melissa found it. Nothing More by alternate routes.
Jacki: Yeah, that's it.
Jaclyn: Melissa for the win. So we like to close with choosing kindness. So Melissa might've given you a little primer, but we basically want to invite you to think about anyone that you would want to give a kind word to yourself. It could be even to Jacki you kindness to you.
But it can be calling someone, texting someone, you can tell us who it is and you can do it later.
Jacki: I thought about this and I have somebody in mind and I'd like to call her now. Let's do it. She is my absolute best friend in the whole world. Her name is Beth Malinski. Okay. We were pledge sisters.
Okay. In 1987 with Alpha Phi. You know, so we've known each other forever and she is my rock. Yeah. Okay. Can I call her?
Jaclyn: Call her. Let's do it. Yes.
Jacki: All right. I hope she's, you better be listening. Put her on speaker.
Jaclyn: Okay. Perfect.
Beth:Hello?
Jacki: Hello. You're on speaker.
Beth: Good morning.
Jacki: What are you doing?
Beth: I am just checking my email.
Jacki: Okay. Well, you are on the Why Kindness podcast with me.
Jaclyn: Hi.
That's Jaclyn. She says hi. So, and Melissa is the, the audio person extraordinaire who is making all this happen. But I just, I wanted to call you and first of all, just tell you thank you.
I don't tell you that enough. I know in our, in our friendship, I am the taker and you're the giver. And I want to get better at that. I want to give more to you than I do. You have been, you have been my absolute rock of Gibraltar. Most of my, you know, adult life, but definitely since Peyton died, I would absolutely be lost without you.
Beth: I feel the same.
Jacki: If you ever leave me, I will hunt you down. But you know, you just, you are the most amazing, kind, giving, funny, goofy person that I can call and, and just tell the most ridiculous thing to, and you will listen to me and, you know, I appreciate you, and I don't think I tell you that enough, but I think that you are remarkable, and I'm the most lucky person to consider you my best friend, so, and Toby, and Toby loves you too, so, you know.
Beth: Well, I feel a thousand percent the same.
Jacki: Cannot imagine where I would be if I didn't have you to lean on, so I'm gonna get better at giving, though, and less taking.
Beth: Okay, I'm so blessed and so happy to have you, too. I mean, we're, we're two lucky people to have this much kindness between us.
Jacki: Yeah. And so this is, I mean, we finish each other's sentences, so we, we, we are probably the same person, just in different bodies, so.
Beth: Very true. We often say, get out of my head.
Jacki: Yes, we do. We also say you know, I'll take your secrets to the grave because, you know. We know a lot about each other, so.
Beth: Yes.
Jacki: Yeah, but I wouldn't. That's why
Beth: neither of us can, can leave each other and leave this friendship. That's right.
Jacki: Well, I love you so much and I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate you.
Beth: Oh, well, thank you and I love you too.
Jacki: All right, I'll call you later.
Beth: Bye. Okay, have a good one.
Jacki: You too, bye. Yeah, she's pretty great. She's also a retired teacher and she's my travel buddy. We've traveled all over the, you know, everywhere together and she's, she's. That's
Jaclyn: amazing.
Jacki: She's amazing. So very, very lucky.
Jaclyn: I'm happy you have her.
Outro: Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of the Why Kindness podcast. To learn more about everything you heard today from our wonderful guests, definitely check out our show notes. We hope you're leaving this episode inspired and reminded that every kind act truly does make a difference.
We'd love to hear how you're choosing kindness in your day to day. We write back to every email, so let us know what you think. And please leave a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify. This podcast is one of the many ways we live out our organization's mission to educate and inspire people to choose kindness.
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