In this vulnerable and crucial episode, Jaclyn speaks with grief coach and educator Mira Simone about her experience as a young widow, her work to create a more grief-literate world, and how kindness shows up in the midst of it all.
Mira Simone joins Jaclyn in this episode for an open and important discussion about kindness within the grief space.
Trigger warning. This interview discusses a specific person's experience with death and trauma.
Mira is a widow, mother, published writer, grief coach, and grief educator. She is also a registered mental health occupational therapist in Ontario, Canada.
In early 2019, Mira's life was entirely blown apart, when her partner Brian was diagnosed with an unbelievably aggressive cancer. He died seven weeks later, leaving her alone with their almost three-year-old daughter. Almost immediately, Mira followed an uncontrollable urge to write about her grief publicly on social media and began publishing essays, as a way to process and give voice to the loneliness of her experience. The response was profound. Her following grew, as more and more widows, grievers, and grief-curious humans joined her community, craving a more open dialogue around the grieving process.
In 2022, Mira launched New Moon Mira, her grief coaching business, through which she supports widows and grievers in more intimate group settings both in-person and online and provides grief literacy training for grief-support people and healthcare professionals.
This podcast is one of the many ways we live out our organization's mission to educate and inspire people to choose kindness. Visit our site kindness.org and sign up to become a part of our global community which spans more than 100 countries. It's free to join and when you do you'll be the first to get access to our latest research, tools, and even episodes of this podcast. Let's build a kinder world, together. Contact us at podcast@kindness.org or on social at @kindnessorg.
Sponsored by Verizon.
Important links from this week's episode:
kindness.org
newmoonmira.com
His Beautiful Death Essay https://modernloss.com/his-beautiful-death/
Follow Mira
Credits
Transcript available at this link.
Mira Simone
Intro: Trigger warning. This interview discusses a specific person's experience with death and trauma. Kindness. Why kindness? Because it makes a difference. For connection. Kindness can change lives. It's contagious. The science says you'll be glad you did. Kindness is The key to a healthier, happier world.
Jaclyn Intro: Why kindness while no one answer is the same.
One thing is clear. Kindness is something we all know, but do we know why it matters? I'm your host, Jaclyn Lindsay, co founder, CEO of kindness.org. And you're listening to Why Kindness?
Jaclyn: Hi, friends. Welcome to another episode of the Why Kindness podcast. I am really, really excited to welcome this guest today.
Mira Simone is a widow, mother, published writer, grief coach, and grief educator. She is also a registered mental health occupational therapist. calling in from Ontario, Canada. In early 2019, Mira's life was entirely blown apart when her partner, Brian, was diagnosed with an unbelievably aggressive cancer.
He died seven weeks later, leaving her alone with their almost three year old daughter. Prior to Brian's death, Mira worked for over a decade in the mental health space, but it wasn't until Brian's death that Mira began to really explore the grieving process. Almost immediately, Mira followed an uncontrollable urge to write about her grief publicly on social media and began publishing essays as a way to process and give voice to the loneliness of her experience.
The response was profound. Her following grew as more and more widows, grievers, and grief curious humans joined her community, craving a more open dialogue around the grieving process. In 2020, 22 Mira launched the new moon Mira, her grief coaching business through which she supports widows and grievers in more intimate group settings, both in person and online.
With that, I'm going to welcome Mira Simone to the why kindness podcast. Good morning, Mira. How are you today?
Mira: Good morning. I'm doing well. How are you?
Jaclyn: I'm wonderful. Um, and also honestly, like a little bit on trepidation because I think as I was preparing for this, I realized this is probably the first ever real raw conversation I've had about the Greece process. Um, and so I'm feeling a lot of feelings with that actually And maybe that's probably a lot of the work you do and what we're gonna get into today But thank you for being with us and we're gonna start with the question We always do with our guests the big open question of why kindness?
So what would you say to that?
Mira: I love this question. And I just want to say I love the whole idea behind your podcast. Kindness is, has been such a important part of my life. And I really value that you're doing a podcast about this. And I also, I also just want to say that. What you mentioned at the beginning, I hear all the time when I'm on podcasts, people are often like I was nervous and I think there's a lot of, a lot of feelings of trepidation around really deep loss.
And so part of my work is totally to normalize it. And I want you to ask me questions and I, I'm open. And if there's anything that I don't feel comfortable sharing, I just Have boundaries around that. And it's honestly, I share most things. So I really feel called to talk openly about my experience. And so there's Not a lot that feels hard for me in that way.
Um, and so I just wanted to say that right off the bat. Thank you. Yeah. Um, okay. And so, kindness. Kindness. I was thinking about this this morning when I woke up and I did some journaling. And I think kindness for me is really deeply associated. with grace. And when I think of it in the grief context, specifically, I just think of the people in my life who've had so much grace for me, because I think that when we go through these really deep, profound losses or traumas or changes in our life, there is so much that's brought to the surface.
And there's so much that comes out that can be really challenging. And there's mistakes that Are made and there's things that are said that we're not always proud of. And so the people in my life that I feel I have received the deepest, greatest kindness from are the ones who I also feel have given me the most grace for my imperfection, for the ways that I've stumbled through things that time.
And then same with with me, with myself, how I've been able to give kindness to myself through this process very much is interconnected with the grace that I have given myself to, to make mistakes. To me, those two things are so linked.
Jaclyn: Amazing. I love that. We're definitely, of course, going to get into all the work you do and what led to that, but I want to go back even more who, who Mira is and was young child. So you're in Ontario, Canada now, is that where you're from?
Mira: Yes, it is.
Jaclyn: Okay. And what are your earliest memories and experiences of kindness that you have?
Mira: So my mom always as far back as I can remember, she told me that her father had told her that when you are looking for a partner, someone to share your life with, of all the qualities that you might look for, the most important quality to look for is kindness.
And this was seriously, like, a big part of my childhood and I remember her telling me this. And when I look at, you know, the partner she chose and my father and then both the partners that my sister and I chose, is kindness. Kindness is really the, the link that connects all these humans that are different in a lot of other ways and have so many other qualities that are amazing as well, but are all such kind humans.
And so that was the first thing that really, I remember hearing about kindness was really, and it's so interesting that now I talk all about partner loss and I talk about grief. That was really what it was, was When you think about, you know, one of the most important decisions in your life, who you're going to spend your life with, who you're going to connect your life with, kindness is the thing that you really want to look for.
Jaclyn: Wow.
Mira: I know. Yeah.
Jaclyn: Yeah. That's, that's incredible. There's, we do research on kindness and there's some really Validating research that, like, the most attractive quality in a partner is their kindness. It's what makes someone beautiful. But I have yet to ever meet someone where their parents instilled that, or that became, like, a way that they thought about looking for partnerships.
So I think that's incredible. What does it mean to, like, be kind? So, like, when you're thinking about looking for kindness in a person, And I'm curious, even when you were a child, did you have a sense of what that meant, find a partner who's kind, or that's the most important thing? What did that show up as?
Mira: My father was a really, really kind person. I would say that was one of his qualities that people would remember him by. He passed a couple of years ago as well. And when I was thinking about my childhood and, and memories of kindness, like after thinking about that statement from my mom, I also remember just these really simple moments with my dad.
And I remember, for example, sitting with him on the couch and You know, having a snack together and just kind of sharing food and cuddling up and these really simple moments. And for children, I feel like often kindness, you know, we think kindness has to be this big thing. It has to be, you know, it's complicated, but really it's so simple.
And so I think when I really feel into what kindness is to me, and especially when I was a child, I feel like it's those really simple moments. when you feel like you have someone's undivided attention, especially when you're a child with your parents. And it's these, these simple moments of connection.
That's what really comes through to me. And it's interesting. You say that there's research that backs up what my mom said, essentially, because I do feel like a little bit in our modern society, we've lost a little bit of that. And there's so much put on other things like successes and intellect and, you know, more Maybe more tangible things that are hard, that are easier to quantify.
Whereas kindness, it is hard to really state, at least for me, what is it? So it's like, it's a feeling for me of, of having someone's attention, of having grace, of connection, of really feeling like you matter to somebody. It's almost a feeling that happens within you that it's hard. It's really hard for me, at least, to really even define the words for what it feels like.
Jaclyn: Yeah, but you did. I feel you the inside piece. It's a feeling. It's like you sense it and you know it when you see it when you experience it. Even the work we do is trying to find a way to give tangibility to something that's It's often been seen as nebulous or intangible, and it's because of the bigness and power of it and the potency of it.
So it, it's hard though, because it's so personal. So I think the beauty of kindness, it's understood by everybody. We all have our own experience of it, but it's always different. To this day, I've never heard the same answer, which I think speaks to the bigness of it and the intimacy of it, which is just a really big thing to hold the tension around.
So thank you for sharing that. Okay, so kindness was a part of your life growing up. Did you have siblings? You mentioned a sister?
Mira: Yes, one sister.
Jaclyn: One sister. And, um, and so you've grown up and then how did you land on your career path? Did you kind of always know you wanted to be in this field? Tell us what that trajectory was.
Mira: Yeah, I think, you know, my dad was a doctor and I think that I always really looked up to him and felt like we shared this commonality of wanting to be in a helping profession and I think we both share Yeah. A quality that people tend to feel safe with us and open up to us. And I remember this actually just came to me, but it very much relates to the conversation about kindness.
I remember as a, as a young teen, like maybe 13, 14 years old, I wanted to volunteer in my dad's office. And I really remember going in and his patients were all like, your dad is the kindest physician. He's always listening. And he always has space for us and you have that same quality. And I remember being so, I was so young and I was a teen, you know, and I was just like, Oh, that, but I remember this.
It was like that mirroring of, Oh, I have that too. And I remember they said, you have his eyes and it's, it's his eyes that make us feel safe with him. And he was, he was an internist. Like I think it was, you know, it's uncommon. A lot of doctors, it's like they're rushed and they don't have time. And. You know, he was different in that way, and so I always felt like, as far back as I can remember, I was like, well, first I was like, I want to be a writer, and then I felt like I lost my creative voice, which is a whole other story, and then it came back to me in grief, but it was like, I always had these two things of the writer and the helper, and the holder of space, and so I wanted to do something in that realm, and You know, every volunteer position I ever had was in some capacity in that area.
I was trying to feel into, you know, what made the most sense in terms of what a career path. And I landed in occupational therapy because at the time I was really involved in working with kids on the autism spectrum. And so that felt like, I remember some of the parents were like, OTs are amazing and you can work in this field if you get a degree in OT and it's really the beginning of a pathway that you can take in that direction wherever you want to go.
And so I ended up going to school for OT, even though to be honest, I never felt like it was the right exact fit for me. It was like, somehow related to me and who I am, but it never felt quite right. Um, looking back, I feel like I probably would have been better suited for like a degree in psychology or something like that.
Cause I was always more drawn towards the mental health side of OT, which is a minority within OT. And so it was never quite the right fit, but I always knew that I wanted to do something supporting and helping people. And I remember actually. It's interesting. My dad is coming up so much in this conversation, but I also remember my dad telling me, you should do it, do the degree, get the degree, and just think of it as this piece of paper that will allow you to do the work that you want to do in the world.
You don't have to follow a clear trajectory or a clear path. You will have this piece of paper that will support you. Think of it as your ticket. And that's really when I even think of. Where my career is led now and the grief work that I do really, it's not in any way traditional OT and I don't even call myself an OT when I work in the grief space at all, but it's a part of who I am.
It's a part of my training. And it does feel like that ticket that he, that he taught me that it was.
Jaclyn: Wow. I know we'll come back to how writing has been brought back in to the fold, but back then, can you share a little bit about what happened where you boxed up your passion for creativity and writing?
Was it something specific or just you feeling like you needed a safe path or?
Mira: I've thought about this so much over the past few years as writing has come back into my life, and I'm just like, how did I not do this before? How was I managing my life without this? so supportive and healing I remember Brian, my partner that passed away five years ago, he was a creative person.
He was a musician a naturally creative human, What is your creative tool? Like, how do you let your creativity out? And I was like, I don't know. And it annoyed me that he always asked me that because I felt this feeling of like, I am missing this creative outlet and I don't know what my creative outlet is.
It's like, I, it's like, I forgot this whole part of me from when I was a child where writing. was such a big part of my life, and I was always writing creatively, and I always had journals, and I always said I want to be a writer when I grow up, but it's like I forgot about it. And when I think back to why that happened or how that happened, I think it was a combination of things.
I think, you know, in my family, there was a lot of what to me felt like pressure to go a certain path that felt more like getting a profession and doing something more tangible and writing always felt very elusive and like you can't really make a living writing and there were those types of pressures.
But more than that, that's sort of the story I've told myself, but I think it's more than that. I think, you know, if I think, I think I would have kind of pushed through that if it weren't for other things that were more internal to me. And I think that was really around me feeling like at a certain point in my life, I started feeling worried about what other people thought of me.
And there was something about The vulnerability of putting something creative out in the world and over analyzing, worrying and feeling anxious about how that was going to be perceived, whether people were going to think it was good, whether they were going to think that I was to this or to that or attention seeking all of those things.
And there was a time in my life when the, the need to be safe. somehow overrode the need to be creative. And that was completely broken down when Brian died. That was a big part of my grief process was that I stopped caring.
Jaclyn: Yeah, you hit on the idea of focusing on well being and mental health within the OT space.
Again, I feel life can do this in a way where you have these stepping stones and you don't know what they're for, but you're following or pursuing and then it all makes sense at another time. I have never met an OT who looked at the more holistic way of the role of mental health. I imagine that that's been something that's translated even.
In some ways now today, but what did that look like for you blending well being with how you showed up as an OT and anything you could share about that?
Mira: Well, I never worked in a traditional setting as an OT. So right out of the bat, right, right off the bat, sorry, after I graduated, I started a business with another OT.
And sort of did my own thing right from the start. So we started a business called Dreamweavers that was all about supporting teens and young adults with developmental differences and with autism. And we did like life skills programming and we did really out of the box stuff even then that that really incorporated a lot of mental health.
We were talking about sexuality and relationships for folks with disabilities. We were doing cooking programs and all sorts of really innovative stuff. And so from the beginning, I was always doing my own thing. I was always using that ticket. To make it my own. I, I never had a traditional job in a hospital or a rehab center.
And I think that's why I struggled a lot in the program was because we had all these clinical placements. And I was always like, I know that I'm not going to ever want to do this as my job. It's not me. And I always felt so constricted in those environments. And so that has led me to believe, you know, do I.
Do I belong here? Do I fit in here? Is this what I should really have been doing? But I stuck it out again, thinking about that ticket and then did my own thing right from the start and always incorporated, you know, my training as an OT for sure. And certain elements of it, there's a way that OTs are trained to think that can be really supportive.
When people are living with overwhelm because we're really trained to break tasks down into smaller tasks. We're really trained to understand the nervous system and sort of how sensory input impacts us. And I worked. I've used those skills in my own business. And then I also started working on the side for a woman who had, um, a business of her own as well, working with people who had sustained brain injuries that had cognitive impairments.
And so I worked on the side for her as a contractor as well. And that Was really, really, really helpful for me after I sustained my trauma when Brian passed away and is very helpful now in the grief work I do because super interesting when you start looking into the similarities, even when you look at people's brains and the impact of really profound trauma, there's a lot of overlap between people that have sustained a traumatic brain injury and people that have sustained a really impactful trauma. And so I realized very quickly after Brian died, I was like, all these things that I work on with my clients, specifically with brain injury, in breaking tasks down and making things more manageable and doing one thing at a time and really understanding the sensory.
Um, our nervous system and sensory input, I was using all that on myself. And so those are skills that it's so interesting. Like you say, when you look back on a path and you're like, I always felt like this isn't the right thing. It doesn't quite fit. And now I'm like, it makes so much sense why I worked in that field because it's helped me so much understand my work now.
Jaclyn: Can we talk about Brian?
Mira: Yes, of course.
Jaclyn: So tell us how you two met.
Mira: We were out at a dance party. We had both been kind of dragged out by our friends that night. And I remember walking into the space and really cool dance party in Toronto, all these different people of different ages, dancing, really cool environment.
He was really tall. He was six foot four. And so I remember walking into the space and just looking in and seeing his head like above the crowd and he was kind of standing on the edge of the crowd and he was just kind of looking and waiting and, you know, very Brian just sort of Feeling it out and not feeling rushed to jump right in and there was just something about him.
I felt an immediate connection and we kind of locked eyes and smiled at each other. And I felt this sense of familiarity, like I know you and I feel Like I just want to talk to you and we kept looking at each other for a little while and I was with one of my friends and she noticed and she was like, that tall man keeps looking at you.
You keep looking at him. Let's go. And she pulled me over and I was like, okay. owe so much to her because I feel like knowing Brian now and me I feel like I don't know that we would have either one of us would have had the guts to say anything but she pulled me over and she was just like tall man Mira Mira tall man bye and she ran away and we were just like hi and looking at each other and we ended up chatting All night, we ended up dancing.
We ended up, you know, staying until the place closed down. And then, you know, he walked me home and then I walked him home. It was a whole thing. And then we, that was it. We sort of fell in love and had a baby together. And we had a beautiful life together. And we were together for almost exactly seven years before he passed away.
Um, which I can talk more about as well, but that was kind of how we met. It was very immediate.
Jaclyn: Wow. And he's an artist or musician.
Mira: Yeah
Jaclyn: Okay. So what was the life that you built? Tell us a little bit. Were you living in Ontario and you know, what, what were you pursuing together? And yeah, tell us about the relationship.
Mira: We lived in Toronto, which is, you know, the largest city in Ontario. I think it's the largest city in Canada. And we always shared a real balance, both of us, between loving the city and loving the country. And so we spent a lot of time going back and forth. We both worked for ourselves, we both had flexible schedules, and we really had this Ability to, I think, balance that.
And that showed up a lot after we had our daughter as well. 'cause we were really this beautiful self-sustaining unit because we both could be flexible and we could kind of trade her off back and forth and make it work, just the two of us. And so that was a huge shift when he passed away as well, having everything shift to me in that realm.
But yeah, our life was really quite beautiful and, you know, we had our life in the city with our friends and our apartment and then we would go escape to the country, both of us were really fortunate that both of our families had a country, country homes, cottages, camps, they call it in Northern Ontario, where he's from.
And, you know, we would get out there as often as we could and just spend time in nature. And when I really think of Brian, our really, really beautiful moments together, a lot of them are in nature. He really came alive in nature and loved being out there. And I think we always both had. this sort of internal struggle between the city life and the country life.
And I often wonder what would, where we would have moved to or what would have happened. And now I actually have moved to the country. And so two years after he died, I left our home in the city and I moved to the country and have a very different, slower pace of life here that I think he would have really loved as well.
Yeah, we, we had a really, um, open, deep relationship that I think is quite unique. Like, we really talked about everything and I feel like he knew me in this very, very profound way. And we were really each other's emotional safe place. And so that was another thing that's been really challenging since he's been gone, is that I think I really relied on him a lot for that sort of that deep intimacy of being that person who I really went to with all of those emotional emotional challenges or issues. And then also he was a very grounded person. And so his energy was very calm and he had this really, this really safe presence, which a lot of people notice that a lot of people will share with me.
And I definitely felt that too. And so. Another thing that I really noticed after he passed away is that there were things that I had really experienced since childhood Like anxiety, like feeling, you know, some of the things that I spoke about Before in terms of caring a lot what people thought that you know that showed up in all sorts of ways in my life And then he was a bit of a band aid in that way for me which I'm sure is quite common for people in intimate relationships where I felt like Oh, all these issues that I used to have or things that used to be really challenging for me just disappeared and now, you know, I'm a different person and I felt really safe with him and really, really good in so many ways and then to have him pass away, I realized, wow, I really didn't dig within myself to find those things.
At all. I was really relying on him as a crutch for a lot of things, and so that was hard because a lot came back kind of tenfold, of course, in grief and sort of forced me to dig within myself for a lot of that, which, you know, inevitably feels like a deeper. a deeper level of, of support because it comes from within as opposed to coming from somebody else.
But that's been a real challenge too.
Jaclyn: Thank you for letting us in to all of that. As much as you're comfortable, and I know you talk about all of this, you know, the grieving process publicly, but I want to be sensitive to how much you're reliving everything. Um, can you tell us a little bit about the journey of diagnosis?
Even earliest symptoms, what that was like and then so fast seven weeks. So just give us a little insight into what that journey was for you.
Mira: Yeah, for sure. So Brian had, he sort of had two different, boats with melanoma. The first one, he had a mole. So this was. 18 months before It came back. He had his first bout with melanoma, which we always just called his cancer scare Because we were never really told exactly now what I know which is that, you know It was a really serious cancer and it could have come back at any time, which was not what we were really told But he had a mold on his face that he'd had since childhood and he started to feel It like he it was under his beard.
So We couldn't really see it, but he could feel it and he could feel that it was itching. And so he went to the dermatologist and they biopsied it. And they told us that it was melanoma and that it was a very deep melanoma. And so now that I know what I know, I know that, you know, he probably should have received treatment right then.
And there's when the melanoma is that deep, it can. It can go into the bloodstream, which is what happened with him, but we didn't know that at the time and we just felt like, okay, we're going to listen to the doctors and what they say. And, um, they recommended that he have a surgery, which is sort of like the first line where they, they remove a lot of the skin and tissue from around the mole and they do scans of your whole body to see if it's spread to any other organs.
And so that was terrifying. And we, That summer was so hard. Our daughter was a year and a half and it was so stressful, but it was like good news after good news after good news because they said, you know, it hasn't spread to any organs. It hasn't spread to any lymph nodes. Then he had the surgery and they tested all the tissue from around where the mole was.
They said, Oh my gosh, it hasn't even spread to the tissue around the mole. And so we felt, you know, Brian was like, so into health. And he was like one of the healthiest people I've ever met. And so of course he was doing like all these things on the side. And so we felt like, you know, he got rid of whatever was there that was lingering.
This is amazing. We felt like it was a miracle. And now I know that it went into his bloodstream and it was just lying there dormant, waiting to come to the surface, which is exactly what happened. Oh, there's so many moments where I think of where I'm like, what if this, what if that, right? And I remember that day we got that news that it was, Oh my God, not even in the skin around the mole.
Holy cow. You're completely cancer free. Like I remember that day I had dropped him off at the hospital because it was really hard to find parking in that area. And so I was like running around finding parking. And then I ran to go to the appointment with him. And I remember like coming into the. The hallway where the office was and Brian was like opening the door and being like, bye, thanks to the doctor.
And he comes out and I'm like, what happened? And he's like, it was like a two second appointment. Like he literally just told me I'm fine. And there was not even any melanoma around the mole. Oh my gosh. Like I'm just fine. And I was like, Oh my God. And we were like screaming. And then we were like, Oh my God, we have to be like, Respectful because there's people here that are not getting this good news today.
And we were just like, Oh my God. Okay. And we just left. But I've thought so many times, like if I was in that room with him, just me with my brain and my dad have having been a physician, like what I have said something like, is there something we should look out for? Like, I feel like I might have asked those questions that Brian wouldn't, wouldn't, but I don't know.
Right. But anyways, there's all these moments like that, that you think about afterwards where you're like, what have I done this? What have I done that? But. You know, even my dad being a physician, he was alive at the time. He never said anything, you know? So part of me wonders like, was this just very rare?
What happened to Brian? I don't know. We kind of went on to just like live our lives like normal after that. And we thought he was just completely cancer free. And then 18 months later, he started feeling sick and. Again, like everyone just thought he had a virus or you know, he just had he was feeling really tired.
His back was hurting He was waking up in the night like now looking back. I'm like, oh my gosh, of course he had cancer But we it just wasn't even on our radar Mm hmm, and then he started just feeling ill like he had a flu and he was taking some time off work and again, like everybody was Even my dad who was a doctor, everybody was just like, oh wow, he must have a virus.
Like, you know, what's going around right now and whatever. And then eventually it was just getting worse and worse over a few weeks and his back was hurting so much. And so he went to our doctor. And she was the one who was like, I think you should go in for a CT scan. And I remember him telling me that and I was like, What?
Why? Like, why would, why would you go in for a CT scan? And then, Brian said I think she wants to rule out that it could be the melanoma. And I just remember that moment and being like, How did nobody tell us that this is even a possibility? So he went in for the scan and the next night, you know, we were just like sitting around in the living room after we'd put our daughter to sleep and he got an email and in the email, they said that you know log into your portal your results are ready and literally that's how we found out that he had Cancer in like every single organ including his brain They sent it by email on I guess Thursday night at 9 p. m Which like, talk about unkindness, like these are the moments when I'm just like, our systems are not set up with kindness in mind.
Like that is just so not the way that you should give that news to somebody. And so of course we were in complete shock. I mean, that night we had. It's not like we had somebody there to support us. And so of course I'm feeling immediately like I have to hold this for everybody and my daughter's asleep and this is Brian's life and I'm like, holy cow.
And so that was actually the first night that I started writing again. So after Brian fell asleep and I was just like pacing around the house. And I was like, Oh my God, Oh my God, like I was freaking out. I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a nervous breakdown. Like I'm literally gonna have a nervous breakdown.
And I remember just like, it was like this visceral urge where I was like, okay, I must have a journal somewhere. I used to write all the time. You know, I hadn't had like quote unquote time to write in years. And I remember finding this journal on the shelf and I just started writing. And that was the first night that I started writing and I had like, haven't stopped writing.
since then. Um, and then, yeah, after that, there were just under seven weeks between Brian's, that kind of second diagnosis and his death. And during those weeks, it was a lot of back and forth to the hospital, a lot of, you know, trying to quote unquote, save his life, which now I know Was never a possibility, and there's all sorts of things in there that feel really hard.
And I've been processing a lot of that recently. Like, it's almost taken five years for me to even be able to, like, look at that piece. And again, interesting with the kindness theme because Brian's oncologist did not really share the truth with us about what was going on, which I think is very common in oncology and very common with physicians, especially when it comes to death.
There's a lot of inability to, to talk about death in an open way that would really serve a lot of people. But I think that he did it. I mean, I've thought about it so many times and I think part of it was that he was trying to give us a sort of a kindness. But in the end, it truly wasn't what we needed and it wasn't kind and he was, he was offering us hope, but he wasn't being truthful about what was really going on.
In doing that, he really took away our opportunity to process together and to have that space to connect and for Brian to be able to say the things that he wanted to say for me to say the things I wanted to say for us to talk about what a future would look like. Without him here physically, we never had that.
And it was a lot of really intense effort to save his life that was never going to save his life. And in the end, it wasn't until six days before he passed that they quote unquote told us that he was going to die. And by then he was so close to death that it was really hard to have those conversations, although there were definitely moments and sentences and things he said that I hold so close, but we'd never really had that opportunity to really process together.
Um, and when he actually died, I've written, um, I wrote a piece on the night that he died. I've published a piece on the night that he died called his beautiful death. And it was. It was definitely the most life changing experience for me. It was definitely a portal that we walked through together, that I walked through on my own, partly in, in like coming back on my own.
And it's shifted a lot about how I navigate the world, how I see life. So I actually, although that night was one of the most painful, if not the most painful. Night, I'll ever experience of my life. It was also definitely the most profound and just being with him. Cause I was alone with him, which is what I wanted when he passed.
It was, yeah, just entirely life changing. There's not even really the words for, for how spiritual and deep of a, of an experience that was.
Jaclyn: Mira, I'm so sorry for your loss and I'm, yeah, so honored you're sharing it and that you're using this to help others navigate the grief process. One of the first things I'm curious about going back to Your opening of kindness and grace, have you felt like you've needed to cling to grace as part of the healing process to not allow yourself either self imposed guilt or like, I don't even know, hate, anger, resentment, like any of the flurry of emotions you'd probably feel for every person on the journey who you're dealing with.
Didn't intervene the right way or didn't offer the kindness the way they should have and there's so much in that bucket of the health Care space my first job actually was at a cancer Institute at a hospital in Florida Yeah, so I am curious for you. Like what has your healing journey looked like around?
Is it forgiveness or how have you had to let yourself walk ahead knowing? All the what ifs.
Mira: Yeah. I, okay, I think because I have really leaned into my spirituality since Brian died and I've had so many opportunities to connect with him and to connect with my higher self and I have felt this, there's been this feeling from the beginning that No matter what we did, this was going to happen.
And that has been something that has been probably more supportive for me than anything else, because I can, my, my human self can hold. And I think it's important to hold and process, like we were not dealt with in the, in the best way. This was not the way that it should have been. And I. think there needs to be change.
And I hope that, you know, my voice can play one small part. And I hope as time goes on and I have more capacity for that larger piece about, you know, how we really need to approach these things differently in society. Like I feel as more time goes on, my work is going to expand more into that realm. Um, whereas right now so far, it's been mostly really supporting grievers and widows.
Cause that's more where I've been at. So I do feel like those changes need to happen, but I have never felt like that really deep anger of like, he, this, this oncologist is the reason Brian's dead or, or this doctor who didn't tell this first doctor, the surgeon who didn't tell us to look out for these symptoms.
Like he's the reason Brian is dead. I sort of have this, I don't know where it comes from, but this trust. That this was always going to be the path and so that has been so so so supportive for me And there's so much nuance there too because at the same time I of course have had those moments when I'm like But wait a moment.
What if I like I said before what if I had been in that room? What if this what if that and I've especially in early grief I had this recurring nightmare that Brian like really recurring like it happened frequently where Brian had, you know, maybe responded really well to the treatment and it extended his life and he started to get better.
And then he got sick again and died anyways. And we went through it all over again. Or, you know, we did, we did catch it early and you know, the treatments did work and then it eventually ended up. Like I've had this is a, that was a theme over and over and over again in my dreams. And so I always felt like every time I woke up, I was like, Oh my gosh, it was going to happen no matter what.
And maybe it was. Maybe the way it happened was the way it was meant to happen for us. And I, now, being in the grief space and supporting other widows, of course I support people whose partners died in all sorts of different ways. And sometimes it is this very long cancer journey, and sometimes it's very sudden, and no matter what, there's so much heartache and struggle, and, and, I feel like when I think about for Brian to just what it would have been like for him with the hope and getting better and then it coming back like that to me feels so hard to so so hard to or him living, you know, he needed to have.
radiation on his brain and because he had seven tumors in his brain. And again, I think about, you know, we just said yes, because he was dying and we were desperate. And now that I've had time to look into more what the quality of life is of somebody who's had whole brain radiation, I'm just like. That, like, what would his quality of life have been like?
And so, I think all these things really help me to feel like a sense of peace. Okay, but I don't know if that was specifically answering your question. You asked about grace.
Jaclyn: It was, I mean, no, I think all, you didn't even maybe say the word grace, but all that to me is under that umbrella of, like, allowing yourself.
Not lean in to the bad parts of it in a way of like you can't change it. Like it sounds like acceptance and not blaming the other people, which I feel like part of the grieving process. Mine's limited that I've experienced. Um, but I know for me it was you want almost to find a way to blame something.
And, um, and so I do think you spoke to it, but of course, if there's anything else that you would add, like, please do.
Mira: I think another thing, so that's kind of more to do with the healthcare side of things, but then there's these, there's like these other pieces too, of grace, of having grace for the people around me.
You kind of talked about that a little bit in the ways that people maybe didn't show up and then also. Having grace for myself. So I think those are kind of the three ways, the three pillars. It's like grace for the healthcare people, grace for the people around us, our family, our friends and grace for myself.
And so when it comes to the family and friends and the people around me. I could talk for literally hours about all of the things that come to the surface when a huge traumatic loss ricochets through a community through a family, it brings everything to the surface, it triggers everybody in the weirdest ways, and It's so hard being the person at the very center of that and you see all these things happening and you feel all these things directed at you and it's so challenging because I've struggled a lot with having grace for others and there's all these patterns that you kind of realize that you were in before that you can no longer be in like for me I found with a lot of my friends I had been the one who had Always had the capacity to hold the space for others and I'd gotten into these relational dynamics where I was the supporter and all of a sudden that was totally flipped and I was like no for once in my life I am owning that i'm the one who needs support here and that messed a lot of relationships up And then there's so many things that happen after a loss where people Really go into this Self serving place where they're all like for most of the people in my life.
Brian's death is the worst thing that's ever happened to them. Because I don't know a lot of other people that have lost somebody, like, young and traumatically like that. It triggers a lot of people because then they're scared that's going to happen to them or they're scared that's going to happen to their partner.
And they don't even want to think about it. And it just brings all things, all sorts of things to the surface. And so, As time goes on, I have more of that compassion and that grace to understand like for our closest friends and for our closest family, like Brian's death is the worst thing for them too.
And it, but it was so hard in the beginning. And even now this is a struggle because there are this, these seasons and times when my grief becomes so big again. And it's hard for me to hold space for other people's. Challenges and that can cause a lot of a lot of things to be brought to the surface like, oh, I must think that like their problems don't matter because my problems are bigger and it's, it's not that but it.
feels like that, I think, to others. And so it's been, it's been so hard. And then, and then I have, I feel like I have given people grace, but then I often wonder if a lot of people around me feel like I haven't given them enough grace. And honestly, the most important thing that I tell like all the grievers and widows that I work with is.
The having grace for ourselves because it's so easy to fall into a place of shame when grief knocks you off your feet and turns you into a person that you don't recognize and brings up so many things interpersonally with other people. That's hard. And then you wonder if you're the problem because it's of course easy for everyone else to relate to each other.
And it's much harder for them to relate to you. Like I remember at one point early on finding out that. A lot of close people in my life were all talking about me together and like, how to support me and, you know, wondering, you know, why was she doing this? And why was she doing that? And it felt so isolating.
And it was in that moment that I realized like, yeah, they're all going to relate to and connect to each other because that's going to feel so much safer than trying to relate to me. And I just feel like, again, like I was saying before. Where maybe I relied on Brian a bit as a crutch for things. And now it's like, I have to go inward and just rely on myself and having grace and kindness for myself through this grieving process has been probably the number one thing that has helped me the most.
And it's a constant struggle, like all the time, especially. Being a person who's traditionally been a people pleaser and wanted people to like me and you know, even with my writing and stuff I know that there's people in my life that I you know That have unfollowed me on Instagram and don't want to see what I write because sometimes I write about challenges Interpersonally, and I never ever put people on the spot, but I know that people wonder, Oh, is that about me?
And then that feels hard. So they just unfollow. And so I know that there's people that have like pulled away from me because of me sharing, but I just always come back to myself. And I say like, I deserve to share this. I deserve to. this kindness to myself and this grace for myself. And I've made so many mistakes.
I've done so many things that I look, especially in early grief, I look back and I'm like, whoa, oh my gosh. And then I just have to practice having so much compassion for who I was then and how hard this is. And just over and over and over and over again, this, this practice of like kindness and self compassion.
Jaclyn: What are practical ways that you're able to show that compassion and self kindness, like for a listener who's in this season or has experienced this? What would you say to them, like, what's the guidance and wisdom you would give around that, choosing that self kindness?
Mira: Yeah, I did a workshop all about this, um, in the fall.
I think there's sort of these different pillars that I think of, and one of them for me is very much around like really tangible, physical, practical ways to like show yourself love, which can be really challenging when you, especially when you go through partner loss, because a lot of these ways that someone would like physically show love to us, we've lost in that intimate, losing that intimate partner.
And I always bring it back to my body though first. So I'm like, how can I like, nurture my body and love my body. Um, because you don't think about how much we rely on our intimate partner for that. Like even just a hug or, you know, like even the other day, um, I was at an appointment and the person just like put their hand on my back and was like, giving me like a moment of that.
And I was like, Whoa, like you don't even think about how much you miss something like that until you don't have it. And so I bring it always first and foremost back to my body and I think about, you know, for me like taking warm baths, booking a massage, feeding myself really good food, sleeping, allowing myself to cancel things if need be and really like listening to that and, and being so gentle with my, my physical body.
And I think I have really focused on that a lot in my grief of how my body went through so much. And we, we see that like in, in people that have. Survive profound loss and all sorts of physical symptoms that come up. And so for me, I always think first about that. And then I think about how I can really give myself, again, I'm going to use that word grace, really reminding myself, like, I, I'm worthy, I deserve love.
I deserve care. Even if I have, you know, done these things that I'm not proud of, or that I wish could have been different, like, look at what I've been through, and I have this, um, mantra that I use a lot that I teach in my Programs, um, of just like putting your hand on your heart and, and closing your eyes and just acknowledging, like, let's say I feel really anxious about something like really, really anxious.
Cause that can come up a lot after profound loss. And I'll just put my hand on my heart and I'll be like, of course I feel anxious. It makes so much sense that I feel this anxious look at everything that happened. And it's like those simple words that I'll just repeat. Wow. And I think that's why it's so important that we do acknowledge and share our grief and our stories instead of like putting them under the rug and trying to just find the silver linings or forget, because for us to have that grace and that love for ourselves, we have to acknowledge how hard it is.
And I think people, people get nervous that they're going to get stuck in a spiral if they acknowledge how hard something is. And I know that that's. It's not easy for everybody to really, really give themselves that gift of acknowledging. But I really feel like that's so important is having spaces. And that's why I do what I do is having these spaces where we can share how hard it is.
And we don't have to feel that pressure to be like, but I'm fine and but I'm resilient and but I'm okay. Because sometimes there are those moments that will come up over and over again when we feel anxious or we feel scared or we feel. really heavy or we're like wondering why our capacity or our cognition isn't as good as it used to be.
And it's like, of course it's not, look at everything we're carrying, look at everything we're holding. It's so, so much. And so really acknowledging that has been another super life changing thing for me. And then the last one I'll share, which I also just really still struggle with so much that I kind of spoke a little bit about already is like really being okay with Shifting, letting people down, saying, you know, I know I said I do this, but I can't canceling something and that one is so hard for me because I definitely am the type of person who like pushes myself and, you know, I thrive when I feel, as I used to always say this, I thrive when I feel a little bit of that stress.
And, um, I think there was, I was always kind of chronically in a bit of fight or flight, which I could manage before. And now it's like. I can't and grief has really taught me, you know, there are those days and those moments when you just need to be quote unquote flaky, which is the word that I try not to use, but it's like that judgy word that people have in their head.
So I want to name that because that's not what it is. But yeah, being able to sort of just say like, I can't do that. Yeah. And being okay with that.
Jaclyn: Thank you for sharing all that for those. that are walking alongside someone grieving, and they too might be grieving, but I guess for the person who's, lost a partner or, and I don't know how much you get into loss of like child or how many layers um, of grief and different dynamics you're working through, but for any of us that are figuring out how to support someone.
What, what are your recommendations, um, or words of wisdom to know how to show up?
Mira: Yeah, I love this question. Thank you so much for asking it and creating the space for me to share this. So I'll share a couple really specific tangible things in a moment, but in terms of just the overarching thing that to remember that I always say.
Is remember that when you, if you are intentionally wanting to support somebody who has, who is at the center of a loss, like whether that is partner loss, child loss, um, the person who's really like, who's closer to the loss than you, let's just say that it was closer to the loss than you, if you want to support that person, one of the most important things to remember is like, Okay.
It's not about you in that supportive relationship because what happens. What I've noticed happens a lot in interpersonal dynamics after a loss, because we live in a society where we're all walking around with grief that we feel like we don't have a space for. Because grief is shamed in our society and we don't openly talk about it and there's all these stories around, you know, ways to move, you just get over it, you just get over it, you know, and we don't have a lot of safe spaces to talk about grief and we all hold grief.
And so often what I have found happens when there's something like a Partner dies is that then people around us, they start realizing like, wait a moment. I have grief too, that nobody's witnessing. I want my grief witnessed because we all want that. And so they incorrectly, they forget that the person at the center of the loss is not the person to seek that from.
to provide support to that person and then seek it from someone further out from the loss. And this happens, this still happens to me to this day, where people around me will, they see me processing my grief out loud, and it reminds them that they too have grief that no one's witnessing, that they, then they feel unseen in their grief.
And there's often something tricky that can happen interpersonally in those situations. And so that's the number one important thing is remember it's not about you in that, in, in that, in that relationship of support, the support goes in and then you seek, if you're feeling like you need it, seek support from someone further out.
And there's a whole theory about this called the ring theory. That's really, really helpful that, you know, there's like a person at the center of the ring. Who's the person at the center of the loss. And then there's the next closest people. And then the next closest people out and out and out. And the rule is like the person at the center of the loss.
You know, whether that's like the parent or the spouse. or the child, like, like my daughter for when, when Brian died, she would also be at the center. The, the rule is the only good thing about being at the center of the loss is that all the support is coming into you. That's the only good thing about being at the center.
And then everyone else, it's like, you bring support in. And you seek support from outside. And that's such a simple visual that's can be so supportive for helping people. But in terms of tangibly and practically how to support someone grieving, it's so much more simple than people think. Like people think they have to say the right thing.
They have to do the right thing. And like, it's. They're so afraid of doing the wrong thing and saying the wrong thing. And even at the beginning, how you were like, I'm feeling a bit like I forget the word you use, but about this interview. And it's just like, there's, I think there's so much because grief is so big, especially when it's partner loss.
There's like this fear that we're going to make it worse. So we're going to say something that's going to be triggering or hard. And I mean, it comes from such a beautiful place, but the reality is that most grievers, what they really just want is for people to show up. not disappear, not be scared off by their grief.
Just keep showing up. Even if it feels messy. Give us grace because we're going to do all sorts of things that we're not proud of. Trust me, we're being hard on ourselves. And we also miss the old us that used to be able to navigate everything with ease and don't worry about saying the right thing. Often there's nothing to say.
The only thing that I ever tell people, if you really want to say something, you can just acknowledge how hard it is. Like all people want is to. Feel acknowledged and seen and you know, you don't have to provide a solution. There is no solution. And that's, it's not really about that. It's just about being there and, and saying, I'm here, I'm here.
I love you. I'm not going to disappear. And then don't disappear because so many people say they won't disappear. And then they get triggered and they disappear. And they, they go back to their comfortable lives. And really it's such a. The, the journey of being a grief support person is really about, I think, having that grace for that person at the center of the loss and really having that ability to like not make it about you for a while, which is really hard.
And I really understand that that's really, really hard. And then really tangible stuff is really good in grief. Like sometimes the most helpful things are just like, I'm going to drop off groceries for you every Monday. This is what I'm getting you. Tell me if you need any changes to this list. And like, just really specific tangible things that are going to help with the day to day because you can't, you can't bring our person back.
You can't take our grief away. But what you can do is help with those really simple day to day tasks that become so insurmountable when you go through a profound loss. And then the last thing I want to say is like, Remember, it's going to last so long. Grief does not go away. And it comes in waves. And if you see someone smiling and laughing and you think they're okay, they're not okay.
They're just in a moment when they're feeling. a little bit of joy alongside the grief and don't get caught up in the relief of, oh, they're back to who they were. Okay. I can, I can forget about them now because the grief will return. There will be harder seasons. Remember that, remember that it's a long journey.
Like when you go through a really profound loss, it's so many years. And I feel like at five years, I mean, I, I hate to even put a real timeline on it cause it's going to be different for everyone, but I feel like at five years, there is a shift. There's been, there's a shift for me that's happening right now.
Um, and not to say that my grief is gone at all, cause it's definitely still present, but I've had enough time now that I'm better equipped to manage the waves when they do come. And I know my tools and I know my support people and I've, I've kind of. eased into that more. And so I'm more able to hold myself or turn to the right people in the right way when I need them.
Um, but it's been such a journey to get to this point and I've made so many mistakes along the way.
Jaclyn: Mira, thank you.
Mira: You're so welcome.
Jaclyn: I feel I could talk to you all day and we're gonna wrap up soon and I want to be mindful of time and life that you have. I'm curious if there's anything that you would want to say that you didn't get to.
Mira: I think I just really want to thank you for for doing this for creating this space for people to talk about kindness to talk about what that means because I think the world needs more of that. And to invite me on because I don't know if everybody. Wants to have a conversation about grief and I get I just want to bring back to what you said at the beginning and I think it takes so much courage to move through that like when you're looking at it, you know, the list of who's been recommended for you to look at to interview on this podcast and you're like, oh my gosh, this young cancer widow.
That sounds fun, you know, so I just really honor you for saying yes to that and for asking me on and giving me this space to share because I know it's not easy.
Jaclyn: Thank you, truly. Truly a thousand percent honor is mine, has been mine. I feel, um, so grateful to know you and be connected to you and. I'm leaving with so many important insights that I didn't have.
You've educated me so much. I know our listeners will feel the same. I'm just truly grateful and honored you'd let us into this journey with you. So thank you. We close with some questions and I'm gonna, because it's more of a somber tone, I'm Sometimes it's more high energy and I'm just going to kind of navigate it, wait us through it.
But, um, I think I know. Thank you. Um, I think I know the answer, but, um, if you could define kindness in one word. What word would it be?
Mira: I'm gonna stick with the whole grace theme here.
Jaclyn: It's a good one. And it's the first time it's used. So, it's a good one. If everyone around the world could do a kind act, what would you have them do?
Mira: I think just reaching out to one person in your life. Who you feel like is going through a hard time and just practicing, just reaching out and saying, I love you exactly how you are right now. I think there's so much beauty in that.
Jaclyn: I love that. Um, what are you reading right now or listening to on audible?
Mira: I'm reading a book called The Shape of Family that I just picked up very randomly at a bookshop in Mexico where I was with my daughter last week. And it's really good. It's all about grief, of course. I was like, obviously I picked up this book randomly and it's about grief. But it's all about, a lot of what we talked about today, about how grief really shifts things throughout a community and a family and how it changes things because everyone responds in a different way and it triggers people in all sorts of different ways. So I'm about halfway through. It is very heavy, but it's, it's so good. Yeah. I really like it. Shape of family. The shape of family. Yeah.
Jaclyn: Okay. What is the final thing you'd want people to know about kindness?
Mira: That it, that it holds value, you know, I think, I think we live in a world where we forget that kindness is so important. I mean, where are we without kindness? Where is the world without kindness? Where would I be without the kindness that I have received since Brian died?
I don't even want to imagine that. So yeah, it's, it's just one of, if not the most important thing for us to focus on every day.
Jaclyn: Amazing. Um, and Melissa may have shared, but we like to end on action and I have to tell you so honestly that even after hearing from you today, I feel funny having you putting the idea of asking you to kindness.
No, it's like, so I want you to know whatever that if it's for yourself, your daughter. nature, what's the thing that you would want to end, to commit, do, choose kindness today? Um, it could be reaching out to someone, like your Act recommendation, but um, yeah, what would you want to say that you'll, you'll try to do even?
I want to remove all pressure. I don't want to add another thing to the list. Um, but yes, if you want.
Mira: You know, I've been really, the past few days especially, I've been really feeling into this Just immense gratitude that I have for this small group of friends that I've made who are, have all experienced partner loss.
And this is something that is part of why I do the work that I do because, you know, pretty much all the work that I do is in group settings, both in person on retreat and online. And because I, I think having a community of others who understand is so important. And so I've been really leaning in the past few days to this.
Of my widow's sisters and just feeling so much gratitude for them. And so when I saw this question, cause she did tell me about it and, um, I was thinking immediately of them and just wanting to like send them a text after we get off the call today and just make sure that they know, like, I. I don't even know if I, where I would be without them because we've just supported each other through so, so much and it took a few years to like, it's not something that you immediately, like, I remember when Brian died, I was like, all I want is another friend who understands this.
And it took, it took a long time to find that little group. Um, and we all live close enough that we can see each other in person, like a few times a year and we're in touch all the time. And so I really want to just. Let them know that I am so grateful to have them with me on this journey and, and their support and love and understanding and just being there for me in those moments when I just need somebody is, is so helpful.
Jaclyn: Amazing. I love it. Do you have a like a group chat name?
Mira: Yeah. Oh, we don't have a name for our group. We should.
Jaclyn: I’ll think of some ideas. And send them to you.
Mira: I love that.
Jaclyn: Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of the Why Kindness podcast, sponsored by our friends at Verizon. To learn more about everything you heard today from our wonderful guests, definitely check out our show notes. We hope you're leaving this episode inspired and reminded that every kind act truly does make a difference.
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