In this authentic and engaging episode, Jaclyn speaks with recording artist and author Stephanie Quayle about the role kindness has played in her life and career, navigating tragic loss, and why time is our most precious commodity.
Recording artist Stephanie Quayle joins Jaclyn this week to discuss the importance of self-reflection, owning your narrative, and how kindness has shown up in the most unexpected places.
Trigger warning. This interview discusses a specific person's experience with suicidal thoughts, death, and trauma.
Stephanie Quayle is a Nashville recording artist who tours the world with her music and an entrepreneur with her own record label, Big Sky Music Group. Rolling Stone Country called her “an artist you need to know,” CMT named her as part of its “Next Women of Country” franchise, and she’s appeared on popular programs like The Kelly Clarkson Show and The Ellen DeGeneres Show. As an independent artist with two Billboard charted singles, “Selfish” and “Whatcha Drinkin ’Bout,” she has repeatedly performed at CMA Fest and the Grand Ole Opry. The Montana native has teamed up with recognizable brands like Wrangler, Harley-Davidson, Bass Pro Shops, Montana Silversmiths, as well as Lucchese Bootmaker in the creation of her exclusive boot line. Quayle’s latest album On the Edge chronicles her personal experience in a toxic relationship and the healing she’s gone through since—inspiring others and redefining her future. Stephanie is the author of the new book, Why Do We Stay? How My Toxic Relationship Can Help You Find Healing, releasing April 30, 2024.
This podcast is one of the many ways we live out our organization's mission to educate and inspire people to choose kindness. Visit our site kindness.org and sign up to become a part of our global community which spans more than 100 countries. It's free to join and when you do you'll be the first to get access to our latest research, tools, and even episodes of this podcast. Let's build a kinder world, together. Contact us at podcast@kindness.org or on social at @kindnessorg.
Important links from this week's episode:
kindness.org
stephaniequayle.com
Buy the book: barnesandnoble.com/w/why-do-we-stay-stephanie-quayle/1143726766
Follow Stephanie
Credits
Transcript available at this link.
Intro: Trigger warning. This interview discusses a specific person's experience with death and trauma. Kindness. Why kindness? Because it makes a difference. For connection. Kindness can change lives. It's contagious. The science says you'll be glad you did. Kindness is beautiful. The key to a healthier, happier world.
Jaclyn: Why kindness? While no one answer is the same, one thing is clear. Kindness is something we all know, but do we know why it matters? I'm your host, Jacqueline Lindsay, co founder, CEO of kindness. org, and you're listening to why kindness. Hi friends. I am so excited to welcome our guest to today's podcast.
Stephanie Quayle is a Nashville recording artist who tours the world with her music and an entrepreneur with her own record label, Big Sky Music Group. Rolling Stone Country called her an artist you need to know. CMT named her as part of its next Women of Country franchise. And she's appeared on popular programs like The Kelly Clarkson Show and The Ellen DeGeneres Show.
As an independent artist with two Billboard charted singles, she has repeatedly performed at CMA Fest and the Grand Ole Opry. Stephanie, I'm so honored and excited to welcome you to the Why Kindness podcast.
Stephanie: Thank you for having me. What a big statement. Why kindness?
Jaclyn: You took the words out of my mouth. Let's do it. Why kindness, Stephanie? What would you say to that?
Stephanie: I would say because the giver always receives. And the receiver always gives. I think when we're kind, it just compounds and you get it back tenfold. Yeah. And it's just so much better to be kind, you know, I don't know. It's, I think we all have a choice, right?
Hard road, easy road, and not that kindness can be easy, but it's such a simpler choice to get to the good stuff. I don't know. I was taught that young. You know, treat everyone with kindness, even if you don't get it back.
Jaclyn: Okay. So yeah, I was, uh, when you were saying that, I was wondering, do you feel like that's always been your MO? And so, yeah, it sounds like since you were little.
Stephanie: Yeah. I come from long line of strong women and, uh, and my dad and all the men in my life growing up, you know, for my cousins and my brothers, just always, you always lead with helping, you know, and not with like, what am I getting out of it? Just like, that's just what you do.
Jaclyn: Yeah. Where, where was home? Where was growing up for you?
Stephanie: Montana, Montana, born and raised in Montana. My parents split when I was young. So half of my, well, half, I think it's so funny to say like city and country because it's Montana. You know, when you think of city, you think of New York, but my hometown of Bozeman was the city and I'd be with my dad on the weekends and, you know, the summers and then, uh, farm life during the week with my mom and stepdad.
So, you know, all kinds of, all kinds of life growing up.
Jaclyn: Yeah. Yeah. And how long were you there? Like, is that still home for you?
Stephanie: Yes. Yeah. So I, I left when I was 16. I did an exchange program for a year. It was my way of running away legally. Uh, I got, you know, bullied pretty intensely and, and hazed as a, you know, a new teen in the high school.
And, uh, so I was like, I got, I got, I got to get out of here. And so I had to do it legally because I'm a, I'm a rule breaker by following the rules. So you know what I mean? Like, like I'm going to leave, but I'm going to do it the right way. So, uh, and then I came back to Montana, graduated high school, and then immediately moved to LA about six months.
Uh, after high school.
Jaclyn: How with, um, bullying, that's so much of my own why was starting kindness, actually. Really? My desire for a better world and that experience really, I tried to pull some semblance of a silver lining out of it. What did it, I mean, so you left, but what did it do to shape you? Like was that the first time you experienced unkindness and what was that like?
Stephanie: Yeah, that was, that was a rude awakening. You know, I, I've loved humans since I was a tiny human. I love people. I love strangers. I just, I don't know. I just, I've always been that kind of person. And so it was jolting to get met with such anger and, and meanness, you know, from having my name written on the bathroom stalls to, uh, you know, being, you know, Could you not duct taped from my neck to my ankles?
Uh, you know, and it's like, yeah, yeah. And it was in front of everyone. And it was, it was a display. And I remember after that, I remember my, you know, once, once everyone left and got their laugh out and I'm standing there in the corridor of my high school, my brother came and cut me out of the duct tape. I just made the choice never again, but I didn't turn into a bully.
I doubled down on kindness. I doubled down. I'm like, okay, I'm not going to let anyone do this to me ever again. And also I won't let it to happen to anyone else. Right. And then as I kind of navigated that following year, I was like, okay, I need to go. I need to go experience the world. I need to go. See that there's more to life than this.
And that's how I ended up in Fribourg, Switzerland of all places. I end up there for a year, my junior year of high school. So imagine doing trigonometry in French where the periods are commas and the commas are periods. I think they just passed me out of courtesy. Uh, and then, you know, fall in love with making music because this little band there let me audition for their band and I got the job being their lead singer.
So. I think that, you know, as you, as you mentioned, silver lining, you know, we can take these obstacles and these hardships and these challenges, and we have a choice, you know, are we going to use it to catapult us toward more greatness and being better? Or are we going to become bitter? And it's, it's a choice.
It's not like, It's not like, oh, everything's fine. We have to choose. I, I found I have to choose it and I have to seek it. Right? Because it's easy to get mired down when things compound and get really hard.
Jaclyn: Yeah, goodness. So much, so much goodness in there. And it feels like you're a spokesperson for our mission.
I'm like, there's like literally like documents where it's like everything you said verbatim is how we think about this work. Our mission is to educate and inspire people. Fire people to choose kindness. It's reminding everyone they have the choice and it all starts with that agency. Um, so I'm just. Yeah, I'm really in awe to hear you speak of it like that.
I feel like there's so many ways I want to go right now, but I am curious, was that your first foray into music? Becoming a singer in Switzerland? Right? Like it's such a random way to get there.
Stephanie: So I had, you know, I had done, you know, choir and school and, and, uh, church, you know, choir singing in my little church.
Yeah. But I never knew it was a possibility as a job, you know, it was such a different time.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: We didn't have the internet. It wasn't social media. So, you know, in Montana, we would always get the, the bands would come through like on the very last leg of their tour after years of being out. So I didn't know it was a possibility.
And then when I got on stage in Switzerland, I was like, Oh man, I make sense. I feel like this is where I, I make sense and where I can serve and I can entertain or, uh, give someone understanding or empathy or whatever it is that come, we get through music and song. And then I was just on fire for music.
So it was, I was all in and my, my, my family's like, Oh, here she comes. She's coming home like a freight train and just that, you know, between strangers, the conversation that has through a song. Yes. You know, and just that, it's just, there's nothing like it. Nothing like it. Yeah. So then I, I just, you know, became like a heat seeking missile for it.
Like I just had to, and I did.
Jaclyn: So okay. You come back, you've left because of what you've gone through. Horrific. I think to my own bullying and I'm like, now I'm raising kids. And you just can't even, it's so different these days with social and you know, there's just so many new layers, but that's, it sounds horrible what you go through and now you come back.
It sounds like. Empowered, you know who you are, you found like your literal voice, and now you're going back to senior year. What was that transition like, showing back up? Was it the same school?
Stephanie: Same school, and you know, I think when you pull back, From a situation that feels so big, right? And it was, it was, it was, it was a turning point for me cause it was a must moment.
Yes. Something had to change, right? So coming back, I think it just kind of, you know, there's a whole lot of world out there and we can have really great impact and this is just one place.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: And I just came back inspired and loving people even more. You know, people, we're just all kind of, we're all messy.
And I think also starting to really understand the why behind bullying, the why behind bad behavior, the why, even though I don't know that I had it so on the forefront internally, I started really understanding like broken people do broken things.
Jaclyn: What, um, what came next when you got home? So you're like on fire, you're going to be a singer.
Was that like, you just knew this was, yeah. Okay. It was, I want to hear, I want to hear like the career path.
Stephanie: Oh my gosh. What a twist and turn it was. So I'm in, you know, singing and everything from jazz trios to big bands, to, you know, R& B, like old school blues to country. I mean, I was just, if there was a microphone and someone was allowing me to sing, I was, it was on that microphone.
So then, uh, you know, I moved to Los Angeles and growing up in Montana, California was familiar. It wasn't that far away. It's a three hour flight from Montana. Nashville seemed like the end game and I did not feel ready. So moving to California was such an interesting experience because, you know, we all grew up with, what LA kind of has represented and Hollywood.
So, you know, I kind of went into it going like, well, this could be anything. Right. And, uh, it was just a really, I mean, 10 years is a long time to spend anywhere. Uh, and that was, you know, those most precious of years, my twenties. So I learned so much about myself, so much about other people. That's really when I learned that I, um, I probably over potentialized a lot of people.
I did a thousand percent because I just wanted to see the good in them so badly
from friends, business. I learned that very quickly that people aren't always what they seem. And that was a, that's a tough, that's a tough deal, but you know, still to this day. I choose to see the good and I just do the verification that I just didn't have that skill set as you know, an early 20 year old just going like, I will do this.
Jaclyn: Yeah. And I believe you all want to help me do this, right?
Stephanie: Like that's that idea. And when people say it, right. I'm like, well, if you're saying it, cause you know, growing up in Montana, we very much grow up with, if you say it, You have like, there's the say and show are, are synonymous. Yeah. And so being a woman of your word or a man of your word, it's like, of course, if someone says they're going to do the right thing, the good thing, I'm like, why would they not?
And then I learned quickly. I'm like, Oh, they do not. Okay. So yeah, but I learned so much. I reflect on those years as. More precious than there was so much heartbreak in it, right? Because as I got toward the end of my time there I had a lot of tragedy, you know And I had a lot of personal, you know, I was kind of forced into personal development
Jaclyn: Hmm
Stephanie: because I had to in order to get through it.
And so I look back at it with more fondness Then I do, you know, like I'll never do that again. Yeah. And I got to see a lot. I got to see a lot. I got to be a fly on the wall in a lot of circumstances, especially in the entertainment world that just kind of, you know, showed there's good and bad with everything.
It's just part, it's just part of human nature.
Jaclyn: So we're going to talk about your book. Why do we stay? Is the tragedy you're hinting at what has informed the book?
Stephanie: Yeah. So, and, and the kind of, I'll go into that a little bit. So it gives, um, context for all that. I was, I fell in love with this guy. I'm, you know, mid twenties.
I, he's got a daughter and I start building a life with him and we're talking, we've moved in together. We're talking to about marriage. It's all those things. And then January 28th of 2009, he died in a plane crash and he was piloting the plane and it was, if for anyone listening that's ever experienced tragic loss.
It comes with so many layers of adrenaline and shock and pushing yourself through because there's so much that comes with it, that you just, you, no one can, you, you can't read a manual and it's still going to have a unmeasurable impact. So then five days later, we had the public memorial for him. And this was at the airport where the crash had happened in Santa Monica.
And there was a sea of strangers. And then there were a lot of women. And that night, my friend came over to my house and confirmed that, uh, I wasn't the only woman. And so, what is meant to be this, you know, grieving the one you love, time, turned into everything is a lie. Everything is a lie. I've just been betrayed.
End. There's, there's no, there's no, uh, I don't get to tell him what I think or feel, or, you know, so it was this really hodgepodge of emotions. And then on top of that family that just wants me to be okay. And they don't want me to hurt. And I think a lot of times, and I've, I've done it. So I say this with, with ownership of wanting people to heal faster than they're ready to heal.
And so I was met with move on and get over it. And so I think I just, I was like, right, that's, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to power through. And, and the thing that I've learned about grief and through writing this book. You can't outrun your feelings. You can't outrun stuff. You have to go through it to get over it.
And, and it's not even getting over it. It's I think just being able to see it from a holistic lens, because when we do the work, that's when we get to heal. That's when we get the freedom. And then we also understand like broken people do broken things. You know, when you look at like the, the layers that come with like a true narcissist, you know, not when someone's just being a jerk, but when you look at that behavioral scope and understand like, man, this, this stems from something that I had nothing to do with.
It's rarely about us. That's just how they learn to operate in order to survive themselves. And I have a lot of compassion now that I've done the work. Right. But at the time I was just so angry.
Jaclyn: Of course. What, um, in hindsight would you say, if any, were signals to you? Like, did, were you so surprised or did all of a sudden you start to realize, wait?
Stephanie: Yeah. So if I went back to the first time I questioned him and questioned just from a standpoint of like, well, that doesn't make sense. Right. That doesn't make like, One in one is not four. Like this is just not quite adding up. And you know, when my head would cock and my intuition would just be like, wait a minute, that's, that's not adding up.
It was met with such fierce defense and you know, you're crazy, you're insecure. I think if I had the skillset that I have now, even this book, if I had just had the book to read and understand the terminology and some of that behavior, I think I would have left. I think I would have had the courage to leave.
And that's one of the things I talk about in the book is that I made my choices. I was complicit. This is not a bashing book. This is me owning, you know, this is what I did and this is how I got through it. And my hope is, is that the book. is a tool and guide for others so that they, if they're in it or think they might be in it or that sounds fish, you know, just to have a guide.
And with Keith Campbell's, you know, he's an expert in narcissism to be, you know, he's just a treasure trove of so much information, you know, 30 years of understanding this and studying it and researching it. He just makes it simple. He doesn't over, you know, psychologize it to where you can't just get the reins and know which way to go.
Lots of horse analogies, you know, I'm a horse person, so I'm like, reins, of course, saddle. Uh, uh, so yeah, I, I think about it a lot and I think the biggest aha, obvious thing that's really come about was, and even going back to before Apollo, the one that died in the plane crashes, I romanticized people. Yeah.
That's the term. I use potentialize because I could look at someone and be like, Oh my gosh, in 10 years, they're going to be amazing. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. This person is the way they are in front of us right now.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: And can we accept them as they are or not? And I, I really, you know, see how much I did that for so many years.
And so, yeah, man, if someone's listening to this and they are looking at someone as a potential versus what's really in front of them, like, man, I wish someone would have said that to me, you know? Yeah. Cause when I think about our time, our time is our most precious commodity. We never get it back. Who we give it to matters.
And when I think about that, I've, I've given a lot of time away. So if I can give others time back, like that makes it, you know, worth it beyond what I wish on anyone, not in a gajillion years. But there are so many blessings that have come through just self ownership and really owning my, my, not only my narrative, but my dark stuff because the book goes to all the places.
And I thought that was terrifying. And also, how can I ask someone to read this? But skirt over the big stuff.
Jaclyn: Yeah. Couldn't do it.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Jaclyn: Yeah. I, I'm curious with the journey, you said the word, like, anger. You were, you had to deal with some of that. I'm sure that's one of many things, but since that's the one you specifically said, I would love to hear if you're willing to talk about it.
Yeah. Cause that's vulnerable. You know, like I think a lot of times it's more with grief, we tend to lean more into like the sad side of emotions, the painful side, but the anger side, and this is a totally different kind of anger.
Stephanie: yeah. Sure. It's like an injustice anger of realizing, You were with someone who wasn't who you thought kind of thing.
Jaclyn: Right. Right. Tell us a little bit. What was that process of working through that? Especially if you have a narrative of like, just get over it. How were you navigating that?
Stephanie: I was just, I was just mad and a workaholic. I just put all my efforts into my work and just stayed in that, you know, mode because it also was easier.
It was easier to be angry with him versus to grieve the love and to grieve and be sad. And I think I only just really grieved that time when I was writing the book, which is So too long, way too long to honor our feelings. I just forced my way through it. And so, you know, with anger you get to, you kind of get this camaraderie, right?
Like, yeah, everyone's mad with you. When you're sad, sad makes people very uncomfortable. People don't know what to do with sad feelings, you know, and, and when we're sad, it's, it's like you, you don't know how to be sad with someone or hold that space and just be like, you know what, you have that right to feel that.
And so I kind of did my grief in reverse, you know, from, from that standpoint is, um, and what I've learned is, uh, with some emotional trauma, work is an easy place to hide. It's very easy to stay in that because it's a, it's the perfect excuse, right? I have to work. I can't go to therapy. I have to work. I don't have time for support groups.
I have to work. I'll get to it eventually, you know, and it, it kind of gives you the perfect escape. At least it did in my case, I really believe that I could avoid it and not run it.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: Until it all came to a crashing halt and it was like, nope. You, you, you, you can't Stephanie. So you got one or two choice, like we got one of two choices and one is either, you know, take control of your life.
Or in my case, it was the potential of losing my life. And that, you know, when I was writing that part of the book, that was probably the hardest part to really put on paper and own that, that I was that sad, that I was that hurt, that was hurting that much. The pain was so great that I was willing. To just throw it all away versus just do the work, but I didn't even know, but it took kind of that, that moment of being on the edge for me to take control and, and make the choice.
Jaclyn: Was there one catalytic moment, like being on the edge where you just know and can point and realize, like I was faced with the crossroads.
Stephanie: Yeah. Thousand percent. So after he died, about nine months later, I fell into another toxic relationship. And in that relationship, I'm trying to remember, it's a few years in that one of my friends, again, these friends, I love them, but.
Really love some good news, you know, from Anna. Uh, she, uh, shared with me that one of her friends had ended up in, um, a night with him. And that, because again, I hadn't done the work in between. Had I done the work, I wouldn't have fallen prey to this guy. And I hadn't done the work, so I was still so raw and vulnerable that when I heard that he had cheated on me right out in the open, it just, it, it took me over the edge.
And I remember getting in my car that night to drive home and where I was living at the time was maybe a 30 minute drive. I called my stepmom and I'm like, I don't know, I don't know if I'm going to make it home. And they were all suspect of him, you know, but as we're adults, you know, and it's really hard to convince other people.
When we see the like giant red flags, you know, it's hard when you're in it. And, uh, it's really difficult when you're in it. So I just have so much compassion for those that are in it and not yet seeing it, because when someone says, how, how could you be so stupid or you're smarter than that? Like that's just very unhelpful.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: And, uh, and it's just not the case. So I, I did get home, uh, and my roommate was gone and I drank an entire handle of vodka. I'm not a very big person. And I had called this guy, I refer to him in the book as the prince. Uh, that's not his name, but that's, that's his reference. You know, we, we did, um, you know, protect names and of certain people and such.
And I just said, I'm done. And it wasn't, I wasn't done with him. I was done with living. I was done with hurting. And that's when they called in, uh, he called the friend that had told me, and she actually called in the, uh, the suicide wellness, um, services from Vanderbilt and, uh, she, and, uh, a gentleman came and, you know, they, they recognized that I was, Okay, just going to have one hell of a hangover, uh, and talking about an emotional hangover because the next morning I went downstairs to make breakfast and, uh, they'd put up the knives and that was that moment when see, like they, you know, in my mind it wasn't so much taking my life as just.
taking away the pain. The pain was so compounded that I didn't know what to do with it. And that was the only thing I knew to do. I'll numb it and I'll just, and I, I will stop causing harm because I'm the common denominator, right? These were all the thoughts going on. So when I saw those knives had been put up, I'm like, Oh, this is how I made them feel.
My precious friend, who's just telling me the truth to protect me. And then this, you know, Sweet man from Vanderbilt that this is what he does, you know, and that's when it really hit. And I just had to seek help and, and it really was not only therapy, but grief counseling. Cause I hadn't done the grieving.
I hadn't done any of it, you know, in any kind of order that made any sense. And grief counseling was a game changer for me. And now I'm, you know, if I ever meet anyone who's going through anything, I'm like, man, if you have lost someone you love, no matter what the circumstances, grief counseling, not only one on one, but also the group setting, it's life giving.
It is life giving. Run. Even if you're running, kicking and screaming, run into it because the thing that we usually avoid is the thing we need.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Jaclyn: I want to thank you for being willing to share that. I, I think the bigness of this work is recognizing we all are stories, people with stories that are complex and you can't box anything in and everything we go through makes up who we are.
Right. Like who you are today is because of this journey you've been on. And now. You will hopefully inspire people everywhere to recognize what they're going through and help them through what might be the writing on the wall without something like this. So I thank you for doing that and bringing it to life in that way.
And I want to just honor and give space for that because I do think it's really heavy.
Stephanie: It's really, really heavy. And also I think that there's so much shame and embarrassment that comes with it and we don't talk about it. And I think that, you know, when I first made the album on the edge title implied, uh, uh, I, I shared it.
I first, when I wrote that album, it was, I didn't know if the world would ever even hear it. I wasn't sure because I didn't know, sometimes, you know, as a songwriter, I write things for myself just to, for the sake. And then other times, like, is this going to, is this going to bring goodness to the world?
Like, is this, is this worthy of that? And so we felt internally that it had really an opportunity to help people and expose a part of me that I'd never shared publicly, which then creates. Conversations like these where we can really help people, right, not just the surface dog dish, you know, stuff that the stuff that makes us feel things that are uncomfortable.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: And so then, you know, to take it to book form, there's no room for interpretation. It's my work. Right. Right. And with music, you can kind of, you know, Oh, I meant this, or, Oh, I meant that. But with this, it's, it's black and white on the page.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: And again, you know, with shame of staying too long, shame of having these very dark thoughts.
And. Taking action in ways that could have been very, very different. You know, the fact that I'm still here is I take that very seriously. And I, and I know that that is precious and not everyone. And so my like life's mission is to hopefully bring more awareness and take the shame away so we can have open dialogue.
And so that when someone is sad, they can be sad.
They don't have to say they're fine. I find my way through. Well, I didn't really, but I find my way through conversation to try to get through conversation. Whereas I was very broken and messy. And I needed help, and I didn't know where to even start until I got forced into something, because I had to, right?
Yeah. So yeah, I, I, I think that sometimes when we talk about things, it kind of gets, wrongfully glorified and it becomes like, um, looking for attention. And we see that in social media, right? You know, you know, we're having these super deep micro conversations and in blips to get likes or comments. And yes, some of that is really incredible because it's creating conversation, but we have to go a step further.
Like for example, with your podcast, being able to have real conversation and real dialogue. To then go, no, I'm not an expert in anything, but hopefully myself I'm getting there, but there are incredible services and ways to get information now that weren't available. You know, I didn't even hear the word narcissist until the last handful of years, you know, right.
Jaclyn: Yeah. One thing I've always. Given time when I'm thinking about my own journey and then what it means for what I do every day and purpose and taking the learnings into something good. I'm wondering if you have wisdom or thoughts on this, which is like, what is needed at the earlier ages so that a young woman like you would, would know herself enough or like know the signals enough?
Like what is the disconnect when you come from and family who's loving and teaches you and equips you and you're strong and you have all these role models, but like, There's still something that, that's what I've gone through. It's like, what was missing that I could have gone there, you know?
Stephanie: That's a great question. I think it is, well, I would say in my case, here's my horse analogy, right? When we would fall off, which we all did, we'd fall off our horse and we'd cry because it would hurt. It was dust yourself off, wipe off the tears. Get back on the horse. And I think what I did was I took that to the extreme versus let's talk about why you fell off.
Oh, did you, did you pull back on the reins too hard? Or were you, you know, like have that conversation. So I think that the overarching, right, we want everyone to get through their stuff to be able to get back on the horse of life, so to speak. But I think we don't, maybe in my case, and I don't know if this resonates, but.
Break it down. Versus just shake it off. Yeah. Right? Like really own it, understand it, look at it through all the sides, and then go, okay, I get it now. I'm not going to do this again because now I understand what just happened. And I think too, you know, had I really had the understanding of human behavior, And that people, we all come from stuff and we all, unless we deal with our stuff, learn from our stuff, do the work on our stuff, tend to project our stuff, right?
And I think a lot of times we think it's us and it has nothing to do with us. Usually zero to do with us, why people are the way they are towards us, even though, you know, some of that. So I just think that. No, we just, uh, I mean, now I look at like my step kids and I don't know if my step sons read my book, but I know my stepdaughter has, and I'll get to see her in a few weeks and I can't wait to have that open comp now she's older.
Right. And she comes from very strong parents and has incredible emotional, um, you know, maturity that, you know, I think a lot of times I'd say at least we, I don't know that we got into the emotions. Of a lot of it, right?
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: Uh, and I'm, I'm a pleaser. I love everyone to be happy. So I would absolutely subject my own feelings and be like, ah, no, no, no.
Let's keep everyone happy. Right. I know that about myself from divorced parents to being a middle kid. I mean, I am textbook. Right. So I think there's just, that all comes with it. At least in, in, through my lens, you know, looking back going on, like, Oh yeah, that's, that's obvious now. Yeah. But no, what do you, what do you, what about, does there anything that resonates from when you were growing up?
Jaclyn: Well, I have to say, but just the, the, um, the things keep coming up. Like I'm also the middle kid. I'm also like divorced parents. Like it's just, there's really strong women in my life. So it's really interesting. The resonance and I'm thinking like, wow, It's wild to have like two really accomplished women today that are coming from backgrounds and how it's shaped today.
I will tell you, I've never heard something like the horse analogy and I think it's brilliant. All often say, I was told, yes, as part of growing up, deal with it. Like you just, you know. You're going to be faced with tough things and you just got to be resilient and that's what it takes to be in the world.
And I was like, okay, but what, do I have the things that I need to navigate? Cause I didn't feel like I did, but I buried and buried because I felt like. This is just normal and this is what's expected. So I think what I'm loving is this idea of how we are taking stock to learn and to make sure we're adapting.
And some of the way the work we do has been brought to life starts at kindergarten in the classroom actually. And a big focus is on equipping kids with emotional regulation and understanding how all of these things speak into who they are and then what it means for those around them. So like power of self first and making sure you, because if no one's there to say what happened with the rains, how can you know, Hey, something happened here?
And I think that's really powerful. Like, um, yeah, I, a lot's resonating.
Stephanie: Well, I think too, and little kids are so awesome, you know, and they're so, they're so willing. And I will say, you know, since writing the book and sharing it, I've been able to spend some time with like high school students and in college.
Cause it's, you know, it's definitely more adult content, uh, in a lot of it, but, and I'm just more blown away. by their desire to understand their need to understand their, their want and willingness. And so I just, I'm so hopeful and so excited theat as, as many hurdles and challenges that they're facing that we didn't have.
Right. And, and when people throw people away, I just get angry. That's like, it doesn't work for me. You know, I'm like, nah, let's, let's have a first hand experience.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: And really see what's there before just saying, well, what everyone else is saying, you know? Uh, and, and so when I think when, when you were just talking about like little ones in kindergarten and just some of the things, when I think back to like those moments where I'd get frustrated, right.
With myself. But it would be an outward emotion as a little kid, right? That was, that was the, you know, I want to be the best and I, and I screwed it up, but I don't know how to take, I don't know how to feel this without it being an outward expression.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: And so when you, now, when I see little kids like, you know, having their moments, I'm like, yeah, I get it.
Yeah. They don't know yet what to do. Exactly. How would they? That's so cool that you do that. That’s very cool.
Jaclyn: Yeah, it's, it's incredible to, um, see how much, like, um, tuning there is, you know, and, and it's like, it's calibration, I think, and it's helping put words to things. In our home, I have two little ones, and,
Stephanie: um, Love.
Jaclyn: Yeah, they're, they're incredible. So they keep me on my toes. They're three and six, two boys. And they, um, that's extra toe work there. Lots of it. My husband is a stay at home dad. So God bless him. He's so good. He does a wonderful job. Yeah, it's incredible. And, um, but they, they, they definitely have their daddy's little temper.
And, uh, um, whenever they like do anything, we have like little, we have like a music instrument, you know, it's like, it's okay to be angry. Like, I think the tension is sometimes if you're like saying you can't do this or this isn't allowed. Right. I ran into that. Like you can't be so sensitive. Right. Like this idea, if you're going to be a tough girl, you got to like, You can't cry or whatever.
Right. So these ideas, so it's like, no, you can be super frustrated. Just go outside and stomp it out or like whatever you need to do to learn how to navigate it because they're all normal. But it's what you do with it. It's like how you're responding, you know.
Stephanie: And it can be really fun too, right? You can take something.
I, I've, I have found my little like things that I can do to Change that. I mean, I'm a full, I'm, I think I'm an adult, you know, change that, some of that internal behavior when I'm feeling and really go, okay, what is really the, the thing that's making me feel this way? Yeah. And it hit me last summer, which is so wild as we're having this conversation now, which just makes my heart so happy because we're capable of such growth.
Humans are so phenomenal. And, uh, when we're willing. When we're willing. And, last summer, I was, you know, the book was done. Everyone's healthy. Things are fine. And I got so angry. And I'm like, what in the heck? Like, I've forgiven, you know, the guy that had died in the plane crash. He betrayed me. I forgave the other guy.
I'm like, I've got my health. Why am I mad? I'm like, what? And it took that point to go, Oh, I haven't forgiven myself. Oh. And then like, once I got that, I'm like, well, come on, let's get to it. And it was a process. Yeah. Once I got there, you know, it's like these little, these little, like it's Keith said it, you know, after I wrote the book, I'm like, okay, I'm good now.
Right. He goes, welcome to level one. You know, now is So much more because as we, as we kind of pull back our own curtain, right? Yeah. And we pull up all the rugs and we take all the hinges off the doors. And now the skeletons are like dancing around like maniacs. You're like, oh, we got some more stuff to look at.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's cool though 'cause we get that education. Yeah. And that edge and like, okay, got it. And that, I think is what true, you know, when you're talking about resilience. Mm-Hmm. , you know, and that's when it's like you can really look at your stuff and go, okay, I, I get now why I was. Losing it in that moment and having my, an adult tantrum and, you know, having these, these moments and then you're like, Oh, okay, now I've got that growth edge.
So the next time something festers up, it's not just stuffing it down and bearing it, which I think is, I think for a lot of women, you know, it's no, the true courage and bravery comes with vulnerability. And that's the strength that I think we all have innately.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: That word just, uh, unfortunately took us a little longer to recognize that that's our superpower.
And, and now I think it's like, now, and now men are like, Oh, this is actually better. Right.
Jaclyn: Yeah. It's so interesting. Okay, so you've got On the Edge, incredible album, and so you, you wrote the, all the songs. Or that was like,
Stephanie: yeah. I wrote the songs with my, um, most confidant, trustworthy songwriting friend, Troye Tuyet.
We actually wrote it here in Montana. Wow. Because to, to talk about that kind of stuff, I had, you know, trust I think is, if you have trust, you have the world. If you don't have trust, it, you can't, I think you can love someone without trust, but you can't, I love my husband, but I trust him, which makes the love like exponential.
Yeah. I think if you don't have trust, it just, It creates a certain guard barrier. You know, you can like love someone from a distance, but you don't trust them. That's, that's, that's a tricky thing. So with Tori, I just knew I could put my whole world in her hands and know that she had my back. And she did in the most, like, I will never be able to repay her enough for what she gave me because that was the catalyst of freedom.
It really was. Yeah, like the healing, right, the catharsis journey to go on that, like, and now to have something that I do think. music has such a way to heal and connect and bring life to people in ways where, um, it's so hard to do with anything else. I think.
And when I think about like other, you know, when, when people are like, well, I'm not an author, I'm not a songwriter.
We all know how to write. And I think that even if you don't put it out into the world, like some people did pointing at myself, uh, which leaves it exposed to all kinds of criticism, uh, which, you know, it's all good. Um, Is journaling, journaling. I used to do when I was little. And then I got afraid that like someone would find my diary and read it.
And then I would, you know, be mortified. And, uh, and then I started journaling again and it just really opened me up to so many moments of just, you know, aha and self reflection and and I think that really helped with writing the book too because I already kind of You know oiled the machine of writing and getting that in that habit of it So when you know, but man journaling is such a gift to self.
Jaclyn: you know I can't believe- I'm so sensitive at the time and I we still have a few more things.
I want to talk through or Close this out, but I um, I think what i'm curious about to bring it Full circle Stephanie is like a remarkable journey and in your mind Is there a thread anywhere or a through line for you of like what kindness was so like the power it had for you Going into everything moving to LA and then what you experienced what what if any was that for you?
Stephanie: I think that I'm so grateful that I was raised with a heart for being good to people and and leaning into that And that I never got to a place where I just shut myself off Or got hardened. I'm temporarily for sure did after, after the plane crash and all that came with that, I, I'm, I said this to my husband, I'm like, I'm too happy.
I'm too joyous. I just like, everything is such a gift that I just want to, um, I just want to live in that space. Uh, I think that the thread is a really strong foundation and to me. I think that when I was younger, I really liked me. Yeah. I was really okay with me. Yeah. And I don't think I started questioning me until it was questioned.
Right. It wasn't until someone told me I was crazy, told me I was insecure, told me I was the problem that I started to go, wait, am I the problem? And my self worth got really convoluted. Right. And But there are such great people out there that the more we just go, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to fight for me.
People will leave. The ones that need to leave because they don't, they don't really like us healthy, can't control healthy people. And, you know, I just, I want to be that example. And so I, you know, if you ever meet me on an airplane, I want, I want to know that everyone's okay. You know, I, I also think we all have such, you know, like when you have nothing to give, give a smile, you know, and, and just watching people and I've traveled so much, you know, just.
You know, looking up and looking into someone's eyes and just meeting them with a smile can turn their day's events. Yes. You know, we all, we all, and I think, I think the thread would probably be we all have so much going on behind our smiles or frowns or sunglasses or baseball hats or not wanting to show anything.
That I think that compassion and empathy. You know, if we walk with that, you know, they say, you know, you don't know someone's story until you've walked a mile. Yes, of course. We all know that. But if we can just have that little moment of just, man, why is that a flight attendant having a tough day? Versus making it like, I can't believe they're treating me like this, right?
Or why did that guy just cut me off? You know, that, that, those little shifts of like, man, I hope wherever he's going, he's going to some situation that's okay. Like we have that ability to just rewire ourselves quick and not make it a negative, right? Or that delay. You're like, Oh man, maybe there's a reason.
Maybe there's a reason I just got stuck behind the longest train in the history of the world.
You know, and give ourselves and others more grace.
And we don't have to have all the yucky in us. You know, we're not meant to be filled with anger. I don't think and frustration and like, uh, you know, we've kind of been taught it, you know, society has sure amplified, you know, mistreating each other.
And I think we're, we're examples of the other. And so I think the more we share that forward. You know, that's, that's, we, we just don't know the difference we could be making in someone's lives by just being kind. Yes. You know, like I, I try to like, whenever I'm in like, um, and I talk about air airports a lot, cause I'm in them a lot, you know, uh, like the bathroom attendant.
You know, like ask them how they're doing, you know, um, the, the person that might not feel seen, see them, you know, and, and just like, you just never know.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: Cause I know I've had those moments where I'm like, on the brink of, you know, That sadness or that hurt or that disappointment or whatever. And someone just meets you in a moment and makes you feel seen.
You're like, Oh, I'm not visible. Oh man. That stranger just took time out of their time to make me feel seen. Maybe, maybe I'm worth being seen, you know? And it's just, you start seeing these little micro, that's a really long winded answer to your very simple question. I'm sorry.
Jaclyn: It was so perfect. Yeah. Um, is there anything you didn't get to say?
We're going to move into like a round Robin and we end with choosing kindness together, but is there anything else you would want our wonderful community to hear from you?
Stephanie: Gosh. Well, first I just commend them for listening, right? To take the time to listen. And hopefully we've been a light, even if it's just for one person, for others.
Uh, but we all are so much stronger than we, than we think we are.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: And we all are capable of really having incredible impact on others. So everyone's story, it all, it all matters and just uh, we, we are worth it. Share it. Cool.
Jaclyn: Amazing. Beautiful. Okay. Okay. So now I basically throw off a few questions and you just like, it's like your gut response.
Okay. Define kindness in one word.
Stephanie: A smile.
Jaclyn: If you could get, maybe it's the same answer, everyone around the world to do one kind act today, what would it be?
Stephanie: Oh, a hug.
Jaclyn: Oh, yeah.
Stephanie: Yeah, you know, sometimes you just need a hug.
Jaclyn: Yeah, yeah. Okay, go out and hug someone today, friends. Who do you credit for teaching you kindness?
Stephanie: Ooh, my mom, she is just like effervescent. She meets every challenge with the biggest joyful heart that, that I, I see that so much in her now. I'm really trying to be, to be that, to my stepkids and to everyone I meet, like she just. She has joy like no other. It's amazing.
Jaclyn: I love that. It's cool. Thank you to her.
Stephanie: Thanks, mom.
Jaclyn: What is kindness in a song? Ooh, I want the world for you.
Stephanie: Ooh, I want the world for you.
Jaclyn: Okay
Stephanie: Yeah, I wrote that for my stepkids. And when I just think about like parents to their kids, like you want, You want them to have everything they ever need, right? And, uh, yeah, I want the world for you.
Jaclyn: Okay. What are you listening to or reading right now?
Stephanie: Ooh. Reading? I'm reading, um, well, I'm doing an audio, which is like reading for our ears, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, Jamie's book, Worthy. It's awesome. It's really great. Uh, strongly suggest it listening to this is wild. Usually when I'm writing new music, I don't listen to country music because I get like, I, I then rewrite someone else's number one hit.
And I'm like, ah, this is a great song. It was George Straits, you know, 10 years ago. I'm like, oh, I can't do that. So, but I'm, I'm listening to country and I've just been listening to a little bit of everything from, you know, the, the new contemporary stuff to, you know, the old school, uh, just country music, which is kind of new territory for me, I'm challenging myself to kind of override that.
of I will be overly influenced to where I can't create my own. Yeah. So I'm, I'm challenging myself with-
Jaclyn: Is there a timeline for new music when we can expect something?
Stephanie: I don't have an exact timeline. I, Did, you know, I, I, I've, I've shared this before, but I'm kind of in that transition of now I'm kind of like starting to go, okay, what's, what's the next going to look like?
Because with putting out the book and the album, I really wanted to just be in the now of it. Yeah. And, and so now I feel my juices, my creative juices are like, okay, pick up the guitar, starting to have little things percolating, but the timing of it, I don't know. I just know I want it to be extraordinary.
And until it is. Extraordinary and greater than anything I've ever done musically.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: It won't, not until it's fully baked, fully ready.
Jaclyn: We'll, we'll be on standby. Amazing. And we end with choosing kindness because it is a choice. And we basically ask our guests to think about Someone they want to acknowledge, think, um, reach out to let them know what they mean to you.
So you can tell us who it is. You can call that person now. You can whatever you're comfortable with, but it's just a way to really close on choosing kindness.
Stephanie: Oh, I think that is, that is so beautiful and it's perfectly timed. I'm going to choose my husband. We are married nine years as of yesterday.
Jaclyn: Wow. Oh my goodness. Yesterday. Congrats. Happy anniversary.
Stephanie: Wild. And, uh, he, He's the epitome of kindness, and I didn't know until I knew.
Jaclyn: Mm-Hmm.
Stephanie: once I had really gotten into my stuff. And, and you know, I talk about the journaling and, and the, and the writing and, and I recognize his unconditional love, which I think when you can love without condition, that is true kindness.
And so, um, he can't hear me because he's in the other room, um, on a call, but yes, I will let him know, uh, yeah, because it's really, you know, I think we always can be leveling up. How can we be better? And, you know, that's one of the things we do every night before we go to bed is like, okay, did I, did I meet my own mark today?
You know, and tomorrow if I, if I didn't quite, I'm going to, I'm going to, you know, keep competing with my yesterday self. Right. I'm like, okay, I'm competing with myself. I want to be better than yesterday.
Jaclyn: Yeah. I love that ritual. It's good. It's a one.
Stephanie: And it's fun. Cause it also like when you kind of like, which I have a lot, you know, and I'm like, ah, I didn't quite make it today.
I didn't quite get to where I wanted. And I, you know, and just allowing yourself to also, you know, feel forward. Yeah. I think that's, you know, I think that's, I think I've really learned to embrace failure and rejection as like, okay, cool. More. Like, love it. Failed again. Yeah. Yep. Rejected again. And then, but yeah, and kind of celebrate it because I think sometimes we forget what it takes.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
Stephanie: To even be able to fail.
Jaclyn: Yes.
Stephanie: Right? What it takes to even be able to, you know, get rejected, it means we put ourselves out there.
Jaclyn: Mm hmm. Mm. So wise. Stephanie, thank you. Thank you for this incredible conversation.
Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of the Why Kindness Podcast. To learn more about everything you heard today from our wonderful guests, definitely check out our show notes.
We hope you're leaving this episode inspired and reminded that every kind act truly does make a difference. We'd love to hear how you're choosing kindness in your day to day. We write back to every email, so let us know what you think. And please leave a review on Apple podcast or Spotify. This podcast is one of the many ways we live out our organization's mission to educate and inspire people to choose kindness.
Visit our site today at kindness. org and sign up to become a part of our global community which spans more than a hundred countries. It's free to join and one of the many benefits includes being the first to get access to our latest research tools and even episodes of this podcast. We are so excited to get you involved in building a kinder world.
Please tune in next time as we continue to explore this big question. Why kindness?