The studio is upbeat and engaged as Josh Kilmer-Purcell and Dr. Brent Ridge join Jaclyn for a conversation on the role of kindness in both professional settings and the physical body. The founders of Beekman 1802 see kindness as the cornerstone of their work in the beauty industry and speak to its strategic power.
Jaclyn sits down with Dr. Brent Ridge and Josh Kilmer-Purcell, co-founders Beekman 1802 in a conversation about the beauty of kindness, including how one kind act was the catalyst for the lifestyle brand, Beekman 1802.
This podcast is one of the many ways we live out our organization's mission to educate and inspire people to choose kindness. Visit our site kindness.org and sign up to become a part of our global community which spans more than 100 countries. It's free to join and when you do you'll be the first to get access to our latest research, tools, and even episodes of this podcast. Let's build a kinder world, together. Contact us at podcast@kindness.org or on social at @kindnessorg.
Sponsored by Verizon
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Credits
Transcript available at this link.
INTRO:
Kindness. Why kindness?
Because it makes a difference.
For connection.
Kindness can change lives.
It's contagious.
The science says you'll be glad you did.
Kindness is the key to a healthier, happier world.
INTRO (Jaclyn):
Why kindness? While no one answer is the same, one thing is clear. Kindness is something we all know, but do we know why it matters? I'm your host Jaclyn Lindsey, co-founder CEO of kindness.org, and you're listening to Why Kindness?
JACLYN
Hello hello, and welcome to another episode of the Why Kindness? Podcast. I am very, very excited about this conversation. These are two people who I've had the incredible honor of getting to know, uh, in many ways, and we've begun working together in a very exciting way, which we'll get into a little bit later. But right now I want to introduce and welcome Dr. Brent Ridge and Josh Kilmer-Purcell. So we're going to dive right in and would love to just open up and ask you both, why does kindness matter to each of you? Josh, why don't we start with you?
JOSH
Oh my gosh, you start with the big questions and then you just punt it right over to me. Why does kindness matter to me? Because I truly think it is the solution to so many issues in all of our lives. In our global lives, um, and I'm not talking like, you know, the easy, like, be nice to other people type kindness, I'm talking like doing the hard work of kindness, um, would solve so many issues in the world. So that's what's why it's important to me.
BRENT
And for me, you know, as a, you know, former physician I really do look at kindness, um, in a much more pragmatic and hands-on way, um, in how kindness can improve our lives, not only just in our communities or you know our mental health, but our actual physical health. And I think that's, that's really what resonates with me about all the work that kindness.org is doing in kindness, is how it actually can influence human health.
JACLYN
I love that. So I know so much of your story, I was even thinking how I wish I could have bottled up our conversation at dinner a few months ago, um, and I left so inspired, and so if you're willing, I would love to dig into some of the things that that we've spoken about before, for all of our friends listening. So Brent, tell me a little bit about your journey to becoming a physician and where that path came from, what prompted you to end up where you are.
BRENT
Uh huh, well, it's been a very circuitous path. I grew up in very rural North Carolina, um, Evangelical and um, you know, spent the early part of my life trying to figure out how I was going to get out of that very, you know, rural location. And my mom was a nurse so I had some, um, you know, access to the health industry and I had a proclivity for science and so the obvious choice was to become a physician. Um, and so I decided to go into medicine and, um, after I finished medical school, um, I moved to New York City to do my residency at Columbia, and that's where I met this fellow.
JOSH
And we started dating and, uh, we began dating in 1999. And my background was I grew up in Wisconsin and also in a little rural area, not quite as Evangelical and conservative as Brent's upbringing, but, um, I went on to college and worked, uh, got a degree in advertising, and moved to New York to start my advertising career, and that's, that was my early days.
JACLYN
Okay, so you both met in the 90s. Tell us a little bit about your story.
BRENT
Well, you know, having grown up Evangelical I had never, um, dated a guy or contemplated dating a guy, um, and just, you know, went into a AOL chat room, um, and-
JOSH
Well, obviously, you contemplated, you went to AOL.
BRENT
Well, by that point, I had contemplated it, moved to New York City. And went into an AOL chat room, and now keep in mind, everyone who's listening, this was back in the day of modem and dial up, so when you're in a chat room you, like, chatted something and then you had to wait, and then you got a response, like, maybe a minute later. Um, and so I had started chatting and, um, Josh happened to be in the same chat room that evening and we chatted for about two hours. And then I got busy doing my residency and law didn't log on again for about three months and when I logged on again, went into the chat room, started chatting and was chatting with this person, um, for, like, almost an hour. And then must have said something that joggled his memory and he's like, “Oh, aren't you the young doctor who just moved up here from the south?” And I'm like, “Yeah,” and he's like, “I think we chatted before.”
JOSH
That's right. So, and I, at the time, I was working in advertising in New York by day and by night I was a drag queen to make extra money, and I, you know, to put it frankly I was sort of a mess. And at the time, right before I met Brent I was like, you know, I gotta clean up my life a little bit and maybe not go out every night and not do so many drugs and all that. And, uh, so when I met, stumbled on this nice young man on the AOL chat room, and he said he was a doctor and just moved to New York, I was like okay, this one is a keeper.
BRENT
And it doesn't come more wholesome than that.
JOSH
So, he would not accept. I kept saying, “Let's go out for coffee, let’s go for a date,” and he wouldn't, he wouldn't accept. Um, but I was the very first internet stalker and through the course of our conversation, uh, I figured out where he lived, where he worked, how he walked to work and all this, and right before he disconnected, I said, “Tomorrow night, eight o'clock, I'm going to be at this subway stop by your apartment, and you're either going to be there or you're not.” And he was.
BRENT
And I was, because he was, you know, working in advertising and he was sophisticated enough to have a digital photo that he could send me, which he did in the chat, um, I didn't even have access to a digital camera, so you know, he had no idea what I looked like. So in my head I was, um, I was like, well, if I show up and I am, you know-
JOSH
Skeeved out.
BRENT
Skeeved out for any reason, I'll just keep walking. He'll never know because he has no idea.
JOSH
Like I would never notice the petrified, shaking, you know, person hiding behind a subway pillar.
BRENT
But long story short we have been together ever since. We went to a Chinese restaurant that night of our first meeting, and every year now for the past 23 years no matter where in the world we are, on that anniversary date, March 15th, we find a Chinese restaurant and, uh, to mark that occasion. And we were actually just in Egypt on vacation on March 15th.
JOSH
We could not find a Chinese restaurant. so we we winded up finding rice and some-
BRENT
And vegetables.
JOSH
And steamed vegetables.
BRENT
And mixed ‘em together.
JOSH
And we were like, “This is the best we can do.”
BRENT
Close enough.
JACLYN
Well, thank you so much for sharing that, and you seem so in love, and it seems like just this incredible, magical story. I'm curious, when you met, was kindness a part of your, like, ecosystem, dialogue, was it anything that you were using then? Because I know it means so much to you both now, um, and your lives are dedicated to it, but yeah, curious what it was like back then.
BRENT
Oh, I don't think we said, “Oh, I'm a kind person,” like, we didn't, that wasn't, you know, part of our profile. But I think that both of us having come from very rural, more isolated places with a lot of, um, you know, religious background, really just made us the type of people who, um, believe in kindness and believe in the Golden Rule. And so that's just kind of part of our personal ethos, um, and like how you help one another.
JOSH
But I would say I was exploring kindness at that time, like really not, you know, I didn't realize it at the time but having grown up in the midwest, which is, you know, nice, they always talk about “Midwest nice,” and part of my exploration of the world trying drugs you know like, going out all the time, just, you know, being gay at that point, was trying to figure out what the difference between nice and good, or kind. You know, I'd been told that all these things were bad things, you know, being gay, um, you know, staying out late and having a good time, all these things were not good. And I just had to explore like okay, well I am gay, I feel gay and there must be something good about being gay, I feel that inside. So finding that difference between just the nice things that you're supposed to do in life and the kind things – being kind yourself and kind to the world around you – I think I was exploring that.
JACLYN
So this is obviously, like, painful, sticky, resonant, probably, with so many people listening and it is this tension of, like, expectations good the constraints that religion can put on us, what does it mean to show up in society in this kind of way. Um, and especially growing up in the years that you were, in the 90s and meeting each other at that time coming out of these places. I'd love to unpack a little bit about that separation of, like, what does it mean to be good, and if that challenges religious values or norms, and how you can be kind. This idea that I think the Dalai Lama is most known for saying, you know, “My religion is kindness,” how have you navigated that? What does that look like for you personally, um, with your family, uh, and what would you say to someone out there who's like, well, can those things coexist together?
BRENT
Well, I would say that, you know, one of the drawbacks of a lot of organized religions, um, is, you know, judgment, and I think for me just in terms of stepping away and analyzing my upbringing I've been able to take away the things I think are good about, you know, religion and spirituality and, you know, higher calling, and how you treat one another, but divorce it from the judgment, um, that has become so, such an inherent part of organized religion. And I do think that religions certainly can coexist, um, with, you know, with, you know, spirituality can coexist even, um, when there are things about the religion that may not necessarily apply to the way that you are deciding to live your life. I definitely think that, I think each person has to decide, how am I going to pursue my personal relationship with a higher being, with God or my personal spirituality outside of what might be a larger, more organized institution.
JOSH
And Brent and I actually differ on this, um, I still do believe in organized religion, I believe in all organized religions. And I was raised Episcopalian and, you know, we always say there's a three-legged stool, there's scripture, there's tradition, and there's reason. Um, and those three are equal and you can't have, you can't sit on a stool with any one of those legs missing or any, you know, or just one or anything. So I think we all inherently know what's kind, I believe it. I think there are scriptures and teachings and history and tradition and rituals that affirm that, you know, or you know deny that. So I believe there is, we know what's kind and we have to really do the work of figuring out how do we get to that kind place in every decision we make. It's almost too easy just to say, well, I'm following this scripture, I'm following these rules right here, um, because those rules don't apply to every situation and I believe in my religion that that's, accepted: these rules are generalized rules, they don't apply to every situation, when you find that situation that this doesn't apply to, that it doesn't feel like it's the kind solution to do what it says, you need to turn to your history and your reason.
BRENT
And you know, we've had this conversation, Jaclyn, amongst ourselves before about how difficult it is to talk about kindness because, you know, the way society is constructed and the way media is constructed these days, it's much more titillating for people to, um, focus on the judgmental things, um, or focus on the negative things rather than kindness. So even though in all formal religions there are both of those things, there's elements of judgment, there’s elements of kindness, the elements of judgment tend to get much more focus than the elements of kindness. I think that's one of the things that, you know, is part of our mission, is to try to really reframe that conversation to get people away from the focus on kind of the more negative aspects.
JOSH
And I think if you're somebody, if you're a person who is struggling with kindness and already contemplating to figure out how to do the kind thing in life, you are a kind person. If you're even contemplating it, you are a kind person, you're doing the work, you're a kind person. So to me that takes all the stress off of, “am I doing it right, am I following my religion, am I following my beliefs”. If you're, if you're worried about it you're already a kind person.
JACLYN
I'm loving this. So, okay yes, let's get into some of the current work you're doing. Take us on the journey. You've met, you have these incredible, brilliant backgrounds, you're combining forces, so walk us through a little bit, especially for those who don't know, maybe about The Amazing Race or just some of what you went through, um, before we get into the launch of Beekman.
JOSH
Yeah, so we have a pretty crazy history. So after we met, um, we dated, we were, you know, like just regular, two New York City guys, um, and that was 2000-ish and then, um, 2006 we found a farm in upstate New York. We were traveling on a weekend, you know, getaway trip, fell in love with this farm. We bought it just, again, as a weekend place. We were still pursuing our careers in the city, and then 2008, just two years after we bought it, we lost, we both lost our jobs in the recession and we had this giant new mortgage on this farm and we realized we needed to figure out a way to pay for it.
BRENT
And just before we had both lost our jobs we had come up to the farm one weekend, and there was a note in our mailbox from a local farmer, Farmer John, and he said, “I have a herd of goats and I'm losing my farm, could I please bring my goats to your property to graze?” Now, this is a very tiny town, you know, 547 people, um, and his last line on this letter was, “...and I'm gay,” and to him, having grown up in this small town where being gay wasn't, you know, necessarily, you know, this kosher thing right, he, um, you know, he thought, “Okay, these two gay guys have moved into the village and here's my lifeline.” And so we met with him and we saw how much he loved his goats and we said, “Sure, you can bring your goats to our property. There's another little house on the property, you can live there,” and we say that was the original act of kindness that started our company Beekman 1802.
JOSH
And for people who, who don't know our company today, Beekman 1802 is a beauty company and we sell skin care products and bath and body products all around the country, and, you know a lot of people say, “Oh my gosh, you guys are doing so well, what an overnight success success story,” but we did have a really meandering path, um, to get to where we are today and it started taking in those goats, um, we started making soap and bath and body products in our kitchen with our neighbors around our dining room table and we started our little company. And then we just did anything we could do to, to sort of, uh, get free marketing and that was everything from writing cookbooks to, um, we did a reality TV show about buying the farm, and then we got asked to be on The Amazing Race, which was probably the most amazing free marketing opportunity anybody could ever have.
JACLYN
Okay, so I want to hear about, I have so many questions actually, let's start with The Amazing Race. Okay, so you’re contestants, you're asked to be on, which is interesting because most people have to, like, submit and apply, so you're invited, is it, like, a definite? Do you both just look at each other and say, “Heck yes, we're doing this,” or was there some convincing?
JOSH
Well it was interesting how we got on.
BRENT
Yeah, so we were, as Josh said, we had done two seasons of this, um, docu-series for Planet Green that kind of followed our transition from city folk to these country people in this small village and, um, the president of CBS Reality TV was a fan. Now, how we found out that she was a fan was that we were doing a cookbook signing at the Santa Monica Library and this, um, little, um, old lady, she, you know, wait until the end of the line to get her cookbook signed, and very unassuming, she had her oxygen tank with her and like, just very, you know, unassuming. And we were just chatting and she said every week my next door neighbor comes over and we watch The Fabulous Beekman Boys show, and it's like, our little, you know, bonding time, and in my head I thought oh, there's these two, you know, older ladies, you know, watching the show together, that's very nice. And then she added, “And she's the president of CBS Reality TV,” and I honestly didn't believe her, because we had had enough kind of interaction with, you know, fans of The Fabulous Beekman Boys show that were like, okay, sometimes people are a little, you know, off, and um, and so I said kind of flippantly, “Well, if she's such a big fan why aren't we on The Amazing Race?” And she said, “I'm gonna tell her.” And then two days later we were back at the farm and the phone rang and, you know, I picked it up and someone said, “Hi, we're calling from The Amazing Race and we heard that you would be interested in running.” And that's how we got into the process of going through all the interviews to to be on The Amazing Race. And, you know, for us, we did really look at it as a marketing opportunity, you know, we, we never dreamed that we would go on to win The Amazing Race, we just thought, okay if we can make it halfway through we will have exposed, you know, our story to as many people as are going to tune in to that particular season, and so let's just hang on to the halfway point and then…
JOSH
But it's very funny because kindness played a huge part in winning The Amazing Race.
BRENT
Because we were not competitive at all.
JOSH
Like, I mean, everybody watched reality TV, it's like, the two middle-aged gay guys, and they never win. You know, like, it's like, you're there to be funny for five episodes and then go home. And we certainly, nobody ever thought we would win, because we were being kind to everybody. Like, on the very first episode we got to the- racing to the airport and then I let a team go in front of me, like, they, because you're just used to, like, holding the door open for people.
BRENT
And they got the last spot on the plane So we had to wait six hours.
JOSH
And, you know, another time, there was a team that was really struggling, really struggling with a challenge, I knew they weren't going to do it. And so I helped him with it. Um, and there were these kind moments that, again, I really believe being kind is such a strategy.
BRENT
A life strategy.
JOSH
It’s a strategic decision. Nothing we did made us lose, you know, we weren't kind to the point of being martyrs, um, but we were kind to the point where we weren't in any drama, like nobody was trying to get us off, nobody was trying to work against us, and we just kind of flew under the radar, um, as that, that nice, middle-aged gay couple all the way to the end where we won.
JACLYN
Wow.
JOSH
Um, so again, kindness to me is such a strong strategic approach to life.
JACLYN
Kindness wins always. So you do The Amazing Race, you win, what was – I am actually curious, because I was a huge fan of the show – what was that for you like, life changing? Was it just like you were so surprised you didn't even know what to do with winning?
BRENT
Well, you know, we had started, so we ran The Amazing Race in 2012. Um, and so, you know, for those four years from 2008 to 2012 we were just really struggling to build the business and like, investing everything that we could into trying to build the business. But it was really difficult because we had this huge mortgage on the farm and so we just really couldn't get out from underneath that mortgage to really grow the business. Josh had to take another job back in the city, um, and so we were living apart, and you know winning The Amazing Race finally helped us pay down the mortgage to the point that Josh could move back to the farm full-time, and that really was the catalyst for really igniting the growth of, of the company.
JACLYN
Okay so, Beekman 1802. Remarkable story, started with an act of kindness. Curious if you think the act of kindness was – Farmer, is it John?
JOSH
Yeah, it’s Farmer John.
JACLYN
Was it Farmer John, or was it you doing the kind act to let him graze? Was it a combo of like, him putting himself out there, how would you even think about being built on kindness?
BRENT
Both. I think kindness is always a two-way street and I think that, um, him putting himself out there, asking for a bit of grace and kindness was important. I think a lot of times people are embarrassed by kindness, they're embarrassed to receive it, they're embarrassed to give it. And I think that it was a supreme act of self-kindness on his own part to put himself out there that way. And I think for us, I don't think that we've felt at the time that we were really sacrificing anything. We're like, “Oh, well, we have this place for you, why would we say no?” Like, that's just, you know, the type of people we are. It's just, you know, if I have, you know, extra, then yes, I share it with someone else. So, yeah, I think it was a two-way street.
JOSH
Yeah. And I think what, you know, it became more of a sacrifice when we both lost our jobs and, you know, suddenly we sort of were responsible for Farmer John and his goats and, you know, they were on the farm and we didn't want to kick them out.
BRENT
Um, so we googled, “what can we make with goat milk,” and that's, that's when the soap started.
JOSH
And then it was, it was just this sort of like rolling stone of kindness, where, you know, as we were growing the company or, you know, literally – I say growing the company we were, like, coding a website and selling individual bars of soap one by one – um, and as we started getting orders that we couldn't handle ourselves we just called on our neighbors, and we couldn't pay them, you know, and we said, “Guys, you know, we're starting this thing it seems like it could be successful. Could you come over and help us?” And they did, they came and wrapped soap and hours they would spend helping us get this out. And that was the act of kindness on their part. They knew that something was happening that was going to help their community. So they were investing in that, um, which was their kindness. And together it really just became this thing that not only grew our company but helped sort of, save our village in upstate New York as well.
JACLYN
I think what I love about your story and journey and what I've personally been inspired by is that you've been able to show by prioritizing kindness it was good for business. And this idea where, um, people question the power of kindness, why does it really matter. I mean really what we're talking about today and why we're even doing this show is reminding people just how important it is, the most important thing arguably. Um, and I think what you've done is you've committed to it, you know, you've been unwavering since day one, that this would be integrated into the entire brand, the ecosystem, the values, the way you care for your team, your employees, your community, it's inspiring but it, also, let's be honest, it's been fruitful. It's shown that it's worked and it's, um, paid its dividends if you will, and so, curious what you would say to like, people listening that either would question the value of kindness being important within business, um, what have you seen, what are those things that we can take as reminders of just how much it matters to prioritize it?
JOSH
Kindness is a cutthroat strategy. Like I, I really, I really do believe that. So many people think it's this soft, you know, just this soft, you know, wimpy thing. But you know, putting aside the fact that it is nice to be kind, you know, it is good to do good things for people, it's, for us, t's become part of the identity of our company. Not just for us, not just for the, our team, not just for our customers but for, uh, the beauty industry in general, like, you ask anybody in the beauty industry, “What do you think about Beekman 1802,” they're like, “Oh, that's the kind company.” Um, and so it put us on the map and that meant being competitive with our competitors in a different way, so we would often bring in competing companies to do collaborations with them, that maybe we didn't even see the best part of that collaboration but by being kind and working together it actually paid the dividends later on down the road. To me being kind is, it's a hard strategy, it's a cutthroat strategy.
BRENT
And I think for me, um, we utilize the beauty industry a little bit subversively, um, you know, because kindness is very important, you know, that's important to us as people, it's important to what we want our legacy to be, um, but again, it's hard to convince people, um, to go that extra step and to be kind. And it's the same thing when I was, you know, in practice and your patients would come in and try to convince them to do a, um, you know, a behavioral modification or a lifestyle modification that would drastically improve their health, it's hard to convince them to do. It's really hard to convince people, sometimes, to do the kind thing, and I knew as our beauty company continued to grow and I saw the power that the beauty industry has on the customer, because you're looking at yourself in the mirror every single day, I'm like, wow, what an amazing doorway to talk about kindness and to convince people of how powerful kindness can be through that act of self-kindness that they're doing every morning or every evening before they go to bed. Um, and so, yes, we are creating products with kindness as an ingredient listed on every product but there is, you know, something bigger going on. Yes, we're going to be kind to your skin, we're going to develop, you know, clinical products that work great for your skin and make you physically look better on the surface, but what we're really trying to do is make you physically better inside as well.
JOSH
And, you know, in the beauty industry as a whole, it has not been kind for many many years. The, sort of, the whole point of the beauty industry was to point out flaws that you have that you need to fix, like that was sort of how people, how the industry sold products, um, and we decided to set ourselves, just be different from that, and say, “Here are the products and here's what they do and they will, you'll see this visible difference. If this is the visible difference you want, great, you're going to feel better about yourself, you're going to feel kind,” but we never said there's something wrong with you that you need to fix. That's where we draw the line.
JACLYN
Yeah, I think, I talk a lot about the idea of rebranding kindness, and I think you've done that. You've rebranded the standard of beauty. For me, personally, I'll say, you know, when I began using the products, as someone who struggled with self-doubt, had a really negative narrative anytime I looked in the mirror, a lot of things from childhood that carried forth into adulthood. Something about using the products made me love myself, or see myself kindly in a way that I hadn't really experienced. It was a very bizarre kind of out of body thing, um, so there's real magic in the idea of like, what kind and beauty means and like, rebranding the standard and the ideas that we have of what beauty is supposed to look like, um, and even the idea of how kindness is beautiful and how research shows, you know, people want, they're more attracted to kind people, they want to be with someone who's kind, so I think there's something really big and exciting coming out.
BRENT
Well, there is, and it's also something really, really small too. Because, you know, when you start, like – I'll start nerding out here and then Josh will, like, rein me in – but, you know, when you look at the power that kindness has, you know, from an epigenetic standpoint, internally, you know, what it's doing with DNA methylation, what it's doing with your, the neuroendocrine system, it is having this powerful influence on the inside of your body, and all of those things influence the microbiome on the surface of the skin, and so it is kind of this virtuous cycle. And we're just finding out on a molecular level how powerful an act of kindness can be and, you know, as we always say, it starts with self-kindness and never, um, as you were saying, you kind of sometimes felt bad about yourself, or we hear people say, “Oh, I feel guilty taking time for myself,” but that act of self-kindness does ripple forward, and if you can just start with one little act – maybe it's putting on, you know, a moisturizer in the morning – and that's your act of self-kindness, and you walk out the door feeling a little bit better about yourself and then that kindness ripples forward and that's, that's profoundly influencing at other people's lives.
JOSH
We always say, kindness is skin care. I mean, your skin will actually look better if you're kind. I mean, it's physically proven, like, that's… so it just becomes a part of a, part of our belief system.
JACLYN
Okay, so let's, um, we're gonna go back a little bit more because I want to ask, who shaped kindness in your life? So, do you have experiences from childhood where you felt kindness or unkindness, where you had a role model of someone who was showing you kindness through their actions? Um, like, who do you credit kindness to when you think about your upbringing?
BRENT
You know, I would say I actually credit kindness to Josh, because, um, you know certainly I have, you know, grown up with all these, you know, very dogmatic kind of religious influences and ran away from them because I thought that was the only escape. And I think it was Josh with his more, kind of, academic approach to religion that kind of comes through his, you know, Episcopalian narrative. He's the one who helped me say, you know what, yes there may have been some things that were, you know, bad, you know, that happened in your upbringing as a result of religion, but look at all of the good things that happened from that upbringing. Um, and so, I think that that, I think Josh is the person who said, “You know what, you have had a lot of kindness in your life, and don't focus on those moments that were bad or maybe setbacks, but focus on the totality of everything, and there's a lot of kindness there.”
JOSH
That's very nice, thank you.
JACLYN
That’s very beautiful.
JOSH
Now I'll avoid the instincts of just giving you, paying you the compliment back even though it's true, um, and my, so many really wonderful, wonderfully kind people, um, in my life, and bullies and things as well, and what's so great about getting older is that you literally start forgetting the people who were not great to you, and that, I mean, that's such a blessing. Um, but one of the people that really shaped and I remember was, was a priest that we, that I had younger, and he was an older man, he was Theologian, he was sort of, he took on our little Wisconsin parish as a retirement project. He was a Yale Theologian so he was, like, really brilliant, I was at that stage I was probably like, seven or eight years old, and I was just worried about everything, you know, like, and I kept asking questions like, “What if you, what happens if you go to hell,” you know, like, “How do you get out?” Like, all these questions, and, uh, I remember he said to me, he said, “Don't worry about the answers to life, you're probably not even gonna get the questions right.” And it was just such a kind thing to do, just say, you know like, let it go, like, you can think about it and all this, but don't let it bog you down, don't let it, you know, hold you back. Um, and I, and that, so that, he was somebody that was, like, just really kind. It wasn't the nice thing to do, he didn't say, like, “Don't worry, you're not going to hell,” you know, “You're a nice little kid, do the right thing you’ll be fine,” he was like, he did the kind thing and he, yeah, he always did the kind thing to me. So that’s one, my parents have always been very kind. You know, I think it was, I was fortunate, the only thing I had to learn growing up was that difference between niceness and kindness.
JACLYN
And what, what do you think that is, if you had to define it or think about that separation?
JOSH
Nice is the easy way out of kindness, um, kindness can be nice, that they can coexist really well a lot of time, most of the time, probably. Um, but there are times when kindness and niceness, the kind thing to do and the nice thing to do, are exactly the opposite, um, and I think learning what those things are really can point, point you in, in a better direction. It's hard, it's a harder way to live but a better way to live.
BRENT
Yeah, kindness is an active thing, you know, I think sometimes, nice is just doing something that is-
JOSH
Easy.
BRENT
Yeah. Socially acceptable. Um, whereas kindness is something very active, like, you really have to work toward it and I think, you know, one of the examples we often bring up is, because we get asked this a lot, like, okay, well, in your workplace, um, you know, if you have to, um, get rid of someone in the workplace who's not working out, like, is that a kind thing, is that a nice thing to, you know, have to to let someone go?
JOSH
I think that's the best example actually, having to terminate somebody from a job and that's something you, we learned as a business. The nice thing to do is not to do it. You know, like, the nice thing to do is just to find a way to around it, um, and the kind thing to do is to-
BRENT
Do it.
JOSH
-do it correctly to help that person. If it's not working out for you as a business owner, as a business, it's not working out for them as somebody who's trying to build a career or build a job.
BRENT
It's stunting their growth, so the kind thing to do is to explain that and, you know, part ways, but that's also the more difficult thing to do.
JACLYN
Yes. Something I think I could try to write a blueprint on, it's been figuring out as kindness.org how to do it in a way that's kind. My husband's favorite thing to say when we're in the middle of a heated argument is like, “Aren't you supposed to be the CEO of kindness.org?” It's like, really high standards for ourselves. Um, so my favorite thing I say is, when you have food in your teeth. I think the nice, polite thing is you don't tell people, but I think the harder thing is to be uncomfortable for a moment and have to say, “Hey, you've got something in your tooth,” so, that’s something to think about.
BRENT
That’s a good one.
JACLYN
Um, okay so I want to dig more also into understanding where you're going with kindness and, like, how you're contributing to a kinder world, you're doing it so much through Beekman 1802. What does the future hold for you when you think about life beyond Beekman 1802? What is next, what does the kinder world look like?
BRENT
Well, I think, you know, with the company we, we say every time, you know, someone uses our product we are trying to promote kindness, again, starting with that act of self-kindness. Um, but, you know, we really want to, um, influence the dialogue around kindness and the research around kindness, which is what brought you into our orbit and the work that you're doing. And. um, you know, when we started working together, what we loved about kindness.org was that it takes a very scientific approach to understanding the impact of kindness and for us when we connected, um, it was in the midst of the pandemic and, um we were like, “What is the way that we can maximize kindness?” And we knew that we spend so much of our adult lives in the workplace, if we could help influence kindness or the conversation around kindness in the workplace, then you take that home, and then it starts, it starts rippling in your home and it starts rippling in your neighborhood and in your city, so what are the ways that we could influence the conversation around kindness in the workplace, um, and start that ripple, and that's how, you know, we came to work with kindness.org.
JACLYN
What an amazing partnership we've had. So, for those listening, um, last year kindness.org and Beekman 1802 collaborated on a research study investigating the role of kindness in the workplace, worked with many amazing companies that helped us do this, this research. We’ll be releasing it this year, so, uh, standby – more to come. But yeah, I think for us, we think about who we work with, um, we take it so seriously because it really matters that we're aligning in a values-aligned way, um, with people who really get it and believe it. But, man, partnering with you, both what an honor, because it's just like, you're teaching us to walk the walk sometimes, um, and I find we leave meetings and I think, “Wow, they're really, they're really showing up in such a genuine way toward this mission.” So it's been incredibly wonderful, joyful to work with you both in that way.
BRENT
Oh, well thank you.
JOSH
I just love seeing that, working with you guys and just seeing that, the data, like, the hard data. I just love that something that's always just talked about so ethereally, um, I don't know how to use that word right, it's like, captured on paper, you know, and the science behind it, it's just fascinating, and that's what I want to get out there more.
JACLYN
Okay, so ten, twenty years from now, where are you in life?
BRENT
Well, we'll be retired because we are not, we are not people who believe that you, you know, need to work your entire life. Um, but, you know, our mutual dream is to be quasi-nomadic and, um, and just kind of move around the world with very few possessions, um, and we just love the idea of, like, popping into a village or a town somewhere, going to the restaurant in town, in, you know this central area, finding the biggest table, and saying, “Oh, whoever wants to come sit at our table, have a conversation, we're going to buy your dinner tonight,” and like, we think that like, that just satisfies our curiosity, it satisfies our need for human connection, um, and that's just, you know, how we would dream about spending, you know, not the last half of our life but maybe the last quarter of our life.
JOSH
Yeah. And my dream for the future is to figure out how to recede from life in a healthy way. And I think this, this is something that's missing in our culture and something that, that needs to be looked at, is how, as you age, as you grow older, you do become, there's a way that you, that you need to exit this planet, that I think we're not doing well. We are fighting against the natural way of receding in life. Um, you know, we always talk about next chapters and what are you going to do next and, you know, “80 is the new 30,” and like, and it's putting a pressure on us that you don't win in the end. You know, we naturally will recede, we will become less as we age, we will become frail, and my sort of goal for kindness is, what is the kind way to age, to become naturally less relevant, that you feel good about? Um, so my journey as I get older is how do we recede in a healthy way.
BRENT
Yes, the last quarter of our life will not be broadcast on social media.
JACLYN
Okay! Um, love it. Okay, so we're gonna move into some rapid fire questions, so just gonna throw out some things and hear your immediate response. What book are you each reading right now?
JOSH
Oh my God, I'm reading an amazing, um, it's The Memoirs of Cleopatra. We were just in Egypt for a trip and, uh, and somebody wrote this, sort of, book a few years ago, it was a big bestseller, um, and it's, you know, fake memoirs of Cleopatra, but it's got all the history of her life, um, but written like a really great memoir.
JACLYN
Wow.
BRENT
And I am re-reading a book, um, called The Originals, um, by a writer called Adam Grant because he gives me so much insight into my personality as a business founder and an entrepreneur, and, um, you know, when I reread it I just, I'm constantly learning from it. Um, and so that, that's what I'm doing, I highly recommend it to everyone.
JACLYN
Yes, it's a good one. And Adam Grant's a wonderful person to follow on Twitter.
BRENT
Yes!
JACLYN
I always feel his tweets are just so good. What is something people would be surprised to know about you?
JOSH
I mean, I don't, I don't know if people will be surprised but one of the things that I do talk about every once in a while is that I've lived my entire life um, living with depression and anxiety. And, um, you know, I don't, people think like, “Oh my gosh, you've got this, this great business and this you're out and doing speeches all the time and talking about things and you're on TV and, you know, happy clappy and this and that,” and, uh, I think people don't realize at the same time that I am living with depression and anxiety. And part of the reason I, part of the way that I deal and cope with that is to, um, distract myself, uh, and I think, you know as we get more comfortable talking about mental health in society I think it's important to talk about your mental health and how that, um, how you portray that to the world, how you portray yourself to the world and how that can sometimes be a disconnect, but it can still be true.
BRENT
And I'd say probably for me, um, people might be surprised about how introverted I am, like, I really don't like to, um, you know, put myself out there, you know we have to do a lot of, as Josh said, speeches and work on TV and and things like that, which requires a tremendous amount of energy for me to get up, to want to do that. And I always say that we have the, um, most quiet house, um, anywhere, no matter where we are, because when we are out of our public life, we just want the peace and the quiet. Like, literally just the peace and the quiet. And, um-
JOSH
But at the same time we love the fun, too. You know, like we're, we do TV retail, people may have seen us, like, on HSN and QVC, and it's very energetic and upbeat and crazy and it is, like, when we're doing it, we are happy and we're having a fun time but like, when we're not doing it we're, like, really quiet.
JACLYN
Finish this sentence. Kindness in one word is…
BRENT
I always say – you’ve heard me say it, I’ve said it before – kindness is wellness.
JOSH
And I say strategic.
JACLYN
Love it! I think one of my highlight quotes is, um, cutthroat strategy, or kindness is the cutthroat strategy, ‘cause it’s so good. Um, if you could get everyone around the world to do one kind act, which act would you have them do?
BRENT
I would have them start with whatever is going to make them personally feel the best about themselves, because if you start with that self-kindness it really does radiate outwards from that.
JOSH
I would say, um, feed another person. So, it can be from, it can be a charitable act or it can just be have a neighbor over to dinner, but I think feeding other people is the kindest thing you can do.
BRENT
And I'll just add to that, like, for everyone who's listening, you know, when you do an act of kindness, or you are on the receiving end of an act of kindness, you always have that feeling inside, like there's that kind of internal glow that you get from that interaction. And I just want everyone to understand that that is an actual physiological thing that is happening in your body. That glow is chemicals surging your body, and those chemicals are having impact on your health, so as much as you can get that glow, every time you get that glow, whether you're giving kindness or receiving kindness in a gracious way, that glow is a positive health outcome.
JACLYN
I love it. That might be, um, the answer to this question, which is, is there any final thing you'd want people to know? So Brent, if you have anything else, please add, but Josh, would love to hear from you as well, like, a final closing thought of what you want people to remember?
JOSH
I mean it's, it's what I've said along like, kindness is difficult, kindness is hard, um, but, kindness is a real thing. I just want to stop people from thinking that kindness is niceness, kindness is soft, kindness is weak. Kindness is a solution.
BRENT
And it's worth it.
JACLYN
Okay, well, now we'll end with an act of kindness, and this is really a chance to showcase it and bring it to life. So we're working with Verizon, they’re our wonderful sponsor of the podcast for this first season as part of A Call For Kindness Campaign, and so, within that, we invite our guests to think about someone that they would want to acknowledge or say “thank you” to, um, or affirm them, give them a word of encouragement. And then, either in this moment, you can even send the text, or you can tell us who's coming to mind that you want to do this act for, um, and if you want to go call them after or do it, we would just really love to hear about that, so anyone coming to mind?
BRENT
Well I want to text, um, someone at our office, but I know they're in a meeting so I can't call them, so…
JACLYN
Okay.
JOSH
Who?
BRENT
Uh, Jill, our CEO. So I will text her right now.
JACLYN
Perfect.
BRENT
Um, what should I say? In a podcast, and, um…
JACLYN
This is real time, folks!
BRENT
… being prompted to tell someone how appreciative we are for spreading kindness. There we go.
JACLYN
Thank you. Well, there we go.
OUTRO: (Jaclyn)
Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of the Why Kindness? Podcast sponsored by our friends at Verizon. To learn more about everything you heard today from our wonderful guest, definitely check out our show notes. We hope you're leaving this episode inspired and reminded that every kind act truly does make a difference. We'd love to hear how you're choosing kindness in your day-to-day. We write back to every email, so let us know what you think. And please leave a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify. This podcast is one of the many ways we live out our organization's mission to educate and inspire people to choose kindness. Visit our site today at kindness.org and sign up to become a part of our global community, which spans more than 100 countries. It's free to join, and one of the many benefits includes being the first to get access to our latest research tools, and even episodes of this podcast. We are so excited to get you involved in building a kinder world. Please tune in next time as we continue to explore this big question: why kindness?