Iconic writer/producer David Kirschner steps into the virtual studio to talk with Jaclyn about the spectrum of his work and how kindness helped shape his career.
Just in time for spooky season, Jaclyn speaks to writer/producer David Kirschner (Hocus Pocus, Child's Play) about kindness in his life, his fascination with family & fantasy stories, and how the kindness of others propelled his career.
David Kirschner's imagination has spawned a body of work that has evoked laughter, fear, suspense, and heartfelt emotion for over 40 years. It was 1975 when the legendary Neil Diamond laid eyes on 19-year-old David's illustrations. From here, David would photograph, and design twenty-two album covers, including the Grammy-nominated for design, The Jazz Singer. Soon after, David's talents were enlisted by famed creator, Jim Henson, for work on Sesame Street and The Muppets. Next, David harkened the voice of his creative entrepreneurial spirit, creating a fantasy garden world, Rose-Petal Place. Inspired by his daughters, Rose-Petal Place quickly blossomed into a book series, toys, apparel, television specials, and a float in the Macys Day Parade.
This success brought David to the attention of Steven Spielberg. Backed by Steven's company, David created and produced the Oscar-nominated and two-time Grammy-winning, An American Tail, which spawned a theatrical sequel, and television series. It wouldn't be long before David struck again, but this time it was the fear of his sister's dolls that would soon become the horror icon, Chucky, in Child's Play. Chucky has prospered in 7 films, and the Chucky VT series is in its third year with an average score of 97 percent on Rotten Tomatoes. David ran Hanna Barbera Studios as President and Chairman for four years, where he led the resurgence of the venerable animation house. During his reign, David co-wrote and produced the two-time Emmy nominated live action, The Dreamer of Oz, with legendary writer, Richard Matheson, and produced the live-action feature The Flintstones. David's book, The Pagemaster was translated into fourteen languages around the world and became a film starring Macaulay Culkin. David produced for Disney, based on his story, the film Hocus Pocus and Hocus Pocus 2, Hocus Pocus 3 is in pre-production.
His other projects include; Frailty, Cats Don't Dance, animated feature Titan A.E, Secondhand Lions, Miss Potter, and Martian Child, David also collaborated with Ron Howard to produce Curious George. He continues today as Executive Producer on the multi-Emmy-winning Curious George PBS daytime series. Ron Howard has been signed to direct a live-action Curious George, that David will produce with Imagine Entertainment. David has continued to honor his commitment to children and society with dedicated positions, Ambassador to The University of Southern California School of Cinema, Trustee of the Board of Crossroads School, Board of Directors for Children's Hospital of Los Angeles, and Board Member of The Center for Early Education.
This podcast is one of the many ways we live out our organization's mission to educate and inspire people to choose kindness. Visit our site kindness.org and sign up to become a part of our global community which spans more than 100 countries. It's free to join and when you do you'll be the first to get access to our latest research, tools, and even episodes of this podcast. Let's build a kinder world, together. Contact us at podcast@kindness.org or on social at @kindnessorg.
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Transcript available at this link. https://why-kindness.simplecast.com/episodes/david-kirschner/transcript
Intro: Why kindness? Because it makes a difference. For connection. Kindness can change lives. It's contagious. The science says you'll be glad you did. Kindness is beautiful. The key to a healthier, happier world.
Jaclyn: Why kindness? While no one answer is the same, one thing is clear. Kindness is something we all know, but do we know why it matters?
I'm your host, Jaclyn Lindsey, co founder, CEO of kindness.org and you're listening to the podcast Why Kindness?
Hello friends, and welcome to another episode of the Why Kindness podcast to say I am beyond honored to have David Kirschner as our guest today is an understatement. This is a man who doesn't even quite know yet the impact he had on my own childhood in shaping who I was, what I believed and what I understood about the world from a very young age through the movies that he was responsible for.
David Kirshner's imagination has spawned a body of work that has evoked laughter, fear, suspense, and heartfelt emotion for over 40 years, including album covers for Neil Diamond, work for the legendary Jim Henson Studios, the Oscar nominated and two time Grammy winning An American Tale, The terrifying child's play and the iconic Hocus Pocus franchise.
The list just goes on. He's an incredibly talented writer, producer, and creator. With that, I'm so thrilled to welcome David. Hi, David. Welcome to the show.
David: Thank you. Thank you for so much for having me on this Halloween week.
Jaclyn: Yes. Halloween week. No better guest that I can think of than having you. So thank you so much.
Um, we're going to get right into things. We always open with this big question, why kindness? So what would you say to that?
David: Well, I have always considered myself, even when I was a little boy, I felt I would see kids on the playground that were not nice. And I just, I didn't want to be like those people. I wanted to be a nice person.
It was the way I was raised. I was very fortunate to meet the love of my life, who was the kindest soul in the world when I was 16. We just enjoy being kind to people. It doesn't take much, does it? It's just, it's a, it's holding a door open. It's, it's always saying, thank you. It's thinking of, of other people besides yourself.
And, for me, I don't know, kindness is just something I just really relate to. I've kind of joked with my family that I'm going to take a, a class, um, an extension class at, at, at USC in, uh, in how to be a bastard in, in the film business, because that's just not, It's just not my nature. And that's usually the nature of this business.
I'm not sure if it's nurture or nature and what it does to people, but I just, I never felt that I fit into that. I always wanted to just be home with, with when our girls were growing up with, with my wife and the girls and our, our pups. And now at 69, I'm not really any different. I really don't enjoy that world at all.
I just kind of enjoy the world that my wife and I have created for ourselves. And it's, it's a nice and kind world. And I feel more comfortable in that. I know what's out there. And there's a lot that isn't kind. But for us, it just, I don't know, it just kind of gets us through the night, if you will.
Jaclyn: I love that.So many good things in there. Let's take it back to the beginning. You started with how you were raised. Tell us a little bit about childhood, where was home to you, who was influencing you growing up around kindness.
David: The most influential person in my life. And I love my parents, but my grandmother was my everything and the kindest soul ever.
And, every night I go out onto the balcony, regardless of the weather. And even if it's Rarely raining in California. I put on my little hat and go out on the balcony off of our bedroom and I say these, these prayers. It's nothing deeply religious, but it's just about being a good and kind person. And my mother taught me this prayer when I was, uh, two years old.
And, um, and the prayer is just being about a good person and, and thinking of other people. And I don't know, at different times in my life, that prayer has gotten me through, um, difficult times. I've gotten through a lot of, um, spine issues. I've had 18 spine surgeries. And, um, You know that that after I kiss Liz goodbye and there's tears in our eyes as I head off into, uh, in for into the room for surgery, I as as they put the give you the propofol and you kind of begin to drift off.
That's the thing. That's that's that I'm quietly saying to myself is is that prayer and it's not about, you know, get me through this or I want this or I want that. It's just, as I said, just about being a kind person. So it's kind of been baked into my soul by My parents, but again, especially my grandmother who I would take any opportunity to be with her.
She lived around the corner and the way that as we, as we, as grandparents do with our, our family, they live around the corner, but I, I just, and I would honestly, I would do anything I could to get out of school so that I could just be with her and hang out for the day. And, um, you know, she's still so in my, my heart.
Jaclyn: Hmm. It's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. How old were you when you lost her?
David: It was six months before our wedding and we were sitting with her. I was at that point I was 21 and she took off her, uh, dress. wedding ring and my wife's name is Lizzie. And she said, Lizzie, I want you to have this. This means this has been everything to me for something like, and my grandfather passed away in the fifties.
But this is, I have worn this for the last near 60 something years. And I want you to have this. We said, Oh no, no, you'll be at the wedding. And, you know, I'll be there. Maybe the week before you can do this. She said, no, it's important to me now that you have it. And very shortly after that, she, she passed away and, um, it's just almost like she knew, but that was the kind of soul she was.
Jaclyn: Wow. And tell us about Lizzie. And so you met at 16 love of your life. What was that story?
David: It's a great story and it's an ongoing story. Thank God. I went on an archaeological dig when I was 16 to the Middle East, and, uh, it was a group of kids, um, and, uh, there was a girl that was on this trip that I was smitten by.
Way too insecure, and, to even approach her. Um, too shy. And one night, uh, it was mail call and I got like 25 pieces of mail. Now I have to say, uh, just so you don't think that I'm the Beatles or, or, uh, or, or Taylor Swift here. My mother put a gun to anybody's head that had ever even muttered a word to me to make sure they wrote me every time and she would give them the aerograms.
And one was the mailman. One was the butcher at the market. Anybody that she would just Make sure that that constantly I had all these, all these, um, aerograms that existed at the time. All you had to do is just put the address on it. She probably actually did that for them. There were stamps on it. And all they had to do is just say a couple words.
Well, I, Liz, who is also pretty shy. She said she can't believe that she did this. Came over to me and I remember thinking my heart was beating and that's the girl. She's coming over. She's coming on now. She's just walking this way. She's going to walk around. And all of a sudden she said to me, I'm so homesick.I got no mail. And can you just share with me what's going on back home? And so we sat and as she tells it. I wish she was here to say it, but as she tells it, she asked me what I wanted to do when I grow up. And I said, well, I've always wanted to write and produce family and, uh, and fantasy entertainment.
According to her, she was so taken by this. Now, I'm not taken enough that, that she showed. Her feelings for me because she again, I had just turned 16 just by like a week and she had an 18 year old boyfriend back in the States. But we became best friends. She kept a diary of everything that Dave and I would do.
Dave and I did this. Dave and I did that. And anyway, we came back and there were some, you know, small reunions. I'm not really a party guy. So I, I didn't go to those. And she said, she always wondered if I went to film school anyway, one lonely Saturday night after I had broken up with a girl that I'd been seeing for about two and a half years after, after being in the middle East, uh, I called her and I left a message and she called back and said, I mean, she made it clear.
She was very involved with somebody else. It was very serious. I went and as she tells it, these are not my words or her. She opened the door and she said, the thought that was in my head was I'm going to marry this guy and, and she did. Liz always makes things happen. And that, that, that's such a great example of that.
This is a very, very bright, um, uh, she has her masters. Um, she runs all the business. She's been the architect of, of my dreams of, I just kind of go in a room and draw pictures and write stories. It's really no different than the stuff I got in trouble for when I was in fifth grade. I just get paid for it today.
And she, um, she just makes it happen so that I could come into this space and, and be the 10 year old that I have always been hopefully always
Jaclyn: I've got goosebumps. That's a great story. And tell Lizzie we say hi, we hope to meet her.
David: You would love you to meet her. We've been married. Yeah, we're in our 47th year right now. Yeah, I know. It's like that's old people time. How could that be? I'm 10 years old. But, um, gosh, I, I feel so blessed to have that as my, just my safe harbor in my life of just this place that You can express your feelings and just you for both of us. We just we're best friends and we call it our eternal sleepover.
Jaclyn: I love that. That's beautiful. I've never heard that phrase, but I'm going to borrow it. Um, okay. Family and fantasy. So especially for listeners who may not fully know yet the full scope and breadth of your work, I'd love to know, you say 10 years old, like, where did that really start in you this dream of wanting to create stories around family and fantasy?
David: I can answer that immediately for, for my seventh birthday, my parents took us, my sister and I, because they would always, we lived in. what's called the San Fernando Valley. And the city was like going to New York for us, um, from the Midwest. It was just, it was this really exciting, colorful place, very different than, than kind of this Midwestern little sleepy, um, town that I grew up in, of Van Nuys.
They, they would take my sister and I to Hollywood and we, I just remember this so well to a theater called the Cinerama Dome, which is still there that looks like a giant golf ball, but it's got a huge cinemascope screen in it, and they took us to see how the West was one, and I was just on the edge of my seat in watching this movie, and at the end watching all of these names.
I didn't know what any of them did. I didn't know what a director was, what a producer was. I mean, the word writer I knew, but I really didn't know what all of these people, these hundreds of people that contributed to this, what they did, but I just knew that I wanted to be part of that world. It was kind of like, you know, seeing a circus when you're a kid and running off to the circus.
But I started making films, you know, little tiny films when I was 11 with my dad's, um, camera, I would make stop motion that's I just started making little films like that and little goofy horror films with lots of ketchup. And, um, uh, you know, and my parents were very understanding. I was horrendous at sports as I continue to be.
I always joke that I've never successfully caught a ball in my life, but. But this world really spoke to me and I was really fortunate to have parents that understood that I was just different than the other kids. I, I much rather be inside drawing creatures. And, uh, my dad was a wonderful artist, but he had to make a living.
So he, he was a businessman, but we would draw together all the time and create things. And, uh, and, you know, those were very special years for me and very, I don't think you realize it as a kid. Those moments for, I'll speak for myself as, as a creator. I don't think I, I understood at moments like that, how important certain things were, but those things as I matured would come out.
And find themselves in my, my work, whether it was my fears, whether, it was the joy for me of, of Halloween, I've done two Halloween specials and, uh, and two movies now about to do a third, you know, so much of my childhood was influenced those special Halloweens.
By well, by Halloween in this case, and how I, how I took those elements. And began to create stories like Hocus Pocus and some of the specials that I've done.
Jaclyn: Wow. It's so inspiring. And what I'll tell you for me, this is true story. And this is what makes this such a special, such a special interview for me. When I was a child growing up, there was of course, you know, we all go through things as children and I was going through a lot in my life, you know, divorce, new family, step siblings, like, and, there were two movies still.
This is so true, David, that I had no idea until I knew we were meeting that you were behind both of them. But the two most formative movies of my childhood were American Tail. And Child's Play. That and American Tale. I have a giant Fievel still to this day that my son's inherited from from childhood and it was my favorite movie of.
Uh, and wonder and acceptance. I learned so much. It truly shaped so much of what I understood in a beautiful and fantastical kind of way. And then the other side at a neighbor's home, they showed me Child's Play.
David: How old were you?
Jaclyn: Oh, six. Yeah.
David: Probably too young,
Jaclyn: Too young. I think very young. I have a six year old now and let me tell you, we wouldn't want to probably very inappropriate, but in that I learned about fear, right? Like I had this, it was such an interesting thing to realize you start to learn so much of what's possible. And so I'm, I have so many questions for you as like a star struck fan, but when you think of storytelling, let's start with this.
Even tell us like, how's the process of like the extreme of something like American tale to child's play. You've done so much, but let's start with those two just because they're so personal to me.
David: Uh, no, it's a, you're, you're right on with the fact that they could not be more different. And my feeling on that is someone like Robert Louis Stevenson, who wrote Treasure Island, was the toast of European society.
Then he turned around and wrote The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and was, the London Times said he should be banned from Victorian society. They, because it was, you know, they said women were fainting, that it was just, it was just such a horrendous and dark story. Yeah. Yet, you know, here we still speak of it.
And then he turned around and wrote a children's garden of verses. And I think people like, um, Walt Disney understood this very well, that mix of, of, of the joy of life of, of, in a film like Bambi, where you see, um, Bumper and he's so funny and he's so cute. And, and then not too far after that, there's just a gunshot and all Bambi says is, mother, and you know exactly what's happened by that.
I mean, it's, it's dark. You don't see anything, but it's very dark. And what I see is that by day, children, imagine and pretend, but by night, it's not. They have the darkest of imaginations of dad. There's something under my bed. Mom, can you close my closet door? There's a crack on my ceiling and I feel like someone's looking at me.
Those were all my things. And I mean, my family was very, very patient with this, this kid that, that had this overactive imagination. And, um, So I, I think those two elements in storytelling are very important. So many of the fairy tales that Walt Disney would turn into brilliant classic movies were, were Grimm's stories that you know, he kind of edited some of them, but that they could get pretty dark in, in themselves.
I mean, in the original. Cinderella, uh, when the sisters feet don't fit into the glass slipper, they cut off their heels and really dark stuff. But Walt Disney understood that. Someone like Ray Bradbury. Um, it was like a hero to me and a, a dear, a dear friend of mine for gosh, uh, 40 something years before he passed away.
Ray really understood just the joy of, of childhood and then some of the darkness that he would weave through that. And he was a huge inspiration for me even before I ever was fortunate enough to call him my dear friend.
Jaclyn: What do you think? Makes the theme of like how we show up as humanity. When you think of this idea of like, these are the things that exist within us as a storyteller.
You're bringing it to the light in a way you're giving it a place to exist and for us to reckon with or wrestle or recognize this is a part of us possibly right. When you think of telling that story, does it inspire you about humanity and what we're capable of? Like the good, the bad, the, you know, the light, the dark, like that kind of tension that you're, you're talking about.
David: I think that as I'm going through that process as a creator, I'm, I'm too insecure to see those things. I, um, it's only after, and I begin to hear what people are saying, because
I'm pretty sure. Whatever I'm working on at that moment is just not going to be good. And, and I, and I, I don't know, I guess it's the cold that drives my train.
I don't do it intentionally, but I just think, uh, you know, like I'll come in my office and look around at all these film posters and memorabilia from the films, then I, you know, I look at a blank piece of paper and I think. Oh my God, I'm never gonna do this again. I'm never gonna create anything. I, I had the great joy recently of, um, presenting Hocus Pocus One for the 31st anniversary of it.
31st is very important. October 31st and all that. Yeah. Um, at the magnificent Disney Theater in Hollywood, um, called the El Capitan. And, uh, and people were dressed up as the characters, um, from the Sisters to factory, Binks, the cat. To Danny, grown women wearing Danny's outfit, Billy Butcherson, just, um, the, the sweet zombie, they, they were all there.
And I, I, as I stared out into the audience, it brought tears to my eyes that these people love this so much that they, they can stay home and not have to pay 26 to have this event evening at, but they chose to come to be together and to share this. feeling this love for this movie. And I must say, when the movie came out, you may not know this, the film bombed.
It's probably the worst reviewed film of my career. Um, it started as a bedtime story for our daughters. We were sitting on the porch and a black cat walked by who lived next and um, I said to the girls, did you know that that cat Is really a little boy that which is and I kind of whispered it, which is turned him into a cat and their eyes were huge and they just became obsessed with this story.
And so I would tell it every night to them and try to come up with something and there's a lot of pressure with that audience Disney. I presented an American tale first to Disney before I was lucky enough to present it to Steven Spielberg and. Disney looked at it and said, well, I won't use their language, but they said, who the is going to go see a film about this mouse, a Jewish mouse.
Why would anybody go see this film? And I said, well, why would anybody go see a film about a wooden puppet? It's what you do with those characters and the journey that you take them on. And, you know, Fievel could have been Italian. He could have been black. He could have been many things. But that story of him coming to America was my grandmother's story.
She came when she was seven years old and saw them just putting the final finishing touches on the Statue of Liberty. And when she was on her way over with nine brothers and sisters and their parents, Her little brother, Fievel, the youngest of them, somehow they couldn't find on the ship and there was a terrible storm and they thought that he had been washed over and obviously he hadn't, but I love this story and I would tell it to my daughters over and over again.
They just loved it. And then I just thought maybe that's a good idea for a story. Because Disney had passed on it, and Spielberg made it, all of a sudden I had Steven Spielberg pixie dust all over me, and all of a sudden I was a lot more talented than I was when they had said no to it. They called me, and as a matter of fact, Jeffrey Katzenberg, the head of the studio at the time, who passed on it, wrote me a note saying, Dear David, now I know that he is going to go see a film about a Jewish mouse, Mazel Tov.
And I thought that was, that was great. But he called and said, I made a mistake. I passed on it. What else do you have? I really don't have anything. I said, I've just been telling my daughter's a bedtime story. So come in and tell me what that story is. So I, he said, Can you come in tomorrow? I said, Oh, no, no, I'm going away for two weeks.
But when I come back, that wasn't true. But I needed to finish the rest of the story to do drawings of this and create it. This world for them to step into. Cause that's very important to me. Uh, the visuals are very important. I always do maquettes, which are sculptures of the characters of worlds. I just tried to create all of these things with the art.
So when someone walks in, they're seeing what's in my head for better or worse. They're seeing what's in my head and I presented it and, and Disney bought it in the room. But what I did was I hung a contemporary mop. A contemporary broomstick and an Electrolux vacuum cleaner with the engine taken out on monofilament wire.
And then I turned down the lights in the room. Um, Lizzie got a bag, um, a grocery bag and have the kids in the neighborhood draw. Cats and witches and all kinds of things on it like a Halloween bag and she bought me about 15 pounds of candy corn and I filled up the bag and I tore the bottom of it made a little serpentine design where the executives would be sitting and when they sat down, they smelled their childhood candy corn, right?
And they smelled their childhood. I had a cauldron with dry ice coming out of it and I proceeded to tell this story of these witches that were on Hallow's Eve are, uh, are hung for their terrible crimes and they swear they'll be back and, uh, And of course, in the film, kids light the black flame candle and bring the witches back and try to, to, uh, work them on, on Halloween, 300 years later.
Jaclyn: Yeah. Oh my goodness. So inspiring. That's amazing. What a story. That's incredible. Thank you for sharing with someone who's been so prolific. You've, you've, I mean, just your resume is just so unbelievable. And someone who feels like wired. Like born with kindness in your DNA, your grandma, Lizzie, like it just is exuding.
It doesn't have to be so on the nose, but I'm wondering, is there an intention for you of bringing that to life through your stories? Like, do you find yourself looking for the opportunity to showcase the good side of who we are?
David: I've never thought of that. And no one has ever asked me that. I would say In the Chucky movies, no, but my partner, Don Mancini, who's so talented, writes and directs those.
I'm just looking around my office, uh, like, I just looked over here, there's, there's a project I did called The Dreamer of Oz with John Ritter, the late, wonderful John Ritter, talk about kindness. And, uh, he starred as L. Frank Baum, the creator of The Wizard of Oz, and that character, well, the Oz books were very inspirational to me, and so I, I wrote this story.
And, and I was lucky that, uh, a, a childhood hero of mine came in to, um, work with me and then write the screenplay to that. Richard Matheson, who, who wrote, um, uh, I don't know if you ever saw it, uh, it's a Christopher Reeves movie with Jane Seymour called Somewhere in Time.
The best date night movie ever. So romantic. Have you seen that?
Jaclyn: True story. Walked down the aisle to that.
David: Oh, my gosh.
Jaclyn: Had a live pianist, a pianist playing live Somewhere in Time, the score from Somewhere in Time. Yeah, it is.
David: Yeah. Close again. Yeah.
Jaclyn: So I have seen it many, many, many, many, many times. I love it. Um, okay. So tell me, tell me about it.
David: Richard Matheson wrote that Richard's gone now, um, Richard wrote that based on my story And it's just the story of this, this man who was so kind, so good, but not great at most things. He just, he really couldn't hold down a job. He was very much a dreamer. I very much related to that part of the story. He fell in love with a woman.
Not unlike me with Lizzie, who was kind of the grown up in the relationship. She had gone to Columbia. She was supposed to go to law school. Her mother was Matilda Gage, who with Susan B. Anthony, was the creator of the women's suffrage movement in America, and really fighting for women's rights to vote.
And and this was her daughter who now was going to give up everything because she loved this man and her mother's like, What are you doing? And she said, No, this is very important to me to to see his dreams come to light. And the mother said, What about your dreams? And she said, He is my dream. And it caused problems for sure in that relationship, but out of that, and there would not have been a dreamer of Oz had it not been for for her and and that amazing relationship that they had.
So, you know, I think something like that. Yes. Kindness. Really comes through, you know, in the, in American Tail, Feivel is just a very sweet, sweet soul in, um, in, uh, Miss Potter, which is the story of Beatrix Potter, um, that Renee Zellweger, uh, did with us with Ewan McGregor. It is a story of this very kind, but very strong woman who was not going to let them in of the period.
Just reject her because she was a woman and she had created a story for children and she was so ahead of her time. She was an environmentalist. She was buying when when she began to really make money, she began to buy all of these farms so that they could all be protected and it wouldn't turn into giant housing in in the Lake District in England and and it's all preserved because of her.
So yeah, I would I would think so. Very early in my career, um, when I was 19, uh, and the same day that Lizzie told me that she had strong feelings for me, I got a call that Neil Diamond wanted to see me. And, um, I had done a pencil portrait of Neil. Hoping that, uh, and I, I gave it to his music publisher, a very nice man.
I was working at a record store and this man named David Rosner came in. And as a thank you for looking at my portfolio, cause I would show it to anybody, um, just to kind of get a break. Cause you know, it was, my dad had passed away. We really had very little, I had no connections, the entertainment business.
The only thing I had was my ability to draw and I showed people. Um, my drawings, whether they wanted to see them or not. And, and I showed this man who was so kind to me. And as a thank you, I did this portrait of Neil. I gave it to him, hoping that he would show Neil, that Neil would call me. It was so naive of me.
That's how kind David Rosner was. And he showed it to Neil and Neil asked to meet with me. And then I started designing album covers for him. And there was an album. I did a sheet music for him of two sunflowers romping down a country road for a song he had written for Glen Campbell. And it won an award for best sheet music of the year from ASCAP BMI.
And I looked at those characters and I thought, gosh, these could be something. I don't know what, but these could be something. So I went to Neil, I'm 19, and I said, is it possible for me to buy back those characters for probably like the 150 that he, that he, um, Paid me for it. And he said, well, don't you have your attorney get in touch with mine.
I didn't have an attorney , and I said that to him. He said, all right, I'll have my attorneys draw it up. And I, I said to Liz. We weren't married yet, but we were always together and I said, I don't know what to do. He's going to have his attorney. She said, well, let's see what it said. She said, but that's a little scary.
His big entertainment attorneys, you know, anyway, a 12 page document came and I'm going through this and not understanding any of it. And I get to the last line on the last page and he sold it to me for 1. 50. That's the kind of person Neil was. He also sent us on our honeymoon.
Jaclyn: Oh my goodness.
David: Yeah. And um, that's the kind of kind soul.
And I've been very fortunate in my career. Never thought of this with everything that you're asking, which are such good questions. I've, I've never thought of, of that side, but Neil was just so incredibly kind to us. And, uh, I remember going to a meeting with him once and And Jaclyn, he, it was so sweet.
He was rehearsing for his tour and my, uh, our oldest daughter, Lexi, was with us. She was about nine at the time. And we're sitting in this giant auditorium that's empty and he's rehearsing. And he said, and he does this. He said, David, are you out there? And I said, yeah, I'm here. He said, I understand your daughter's here with you.
He said, why don't you send her up? And she's very shy. And, and I said, no, go ahead. Go ahead. So she very, you know, she was very intimidated. She walked up there. He put her on a stool and he sang the song that he sang with, um, I don't know. Barbara Streisand, you don't bring me flowers to her. I wish phones existed at that point, because I would have loved to have had that forever.
Um, but she remembers it and that, that's what's wonderful. So I've been very fortunate that I've, I've really had some kind, kind people for the most part around me. I've had some bad people too. Harvey Weinstein, for one, just an incredibly cruel human being. And, um, It was very important to me not to let that stuff ever change me or bring home to a house that was just filled with such love.
And I never did. And those will be the first to say that I, I always left that stuff out there because I don't know, I just did as angry as it could make me. I also didn't take it very seriously as far as affecting my life or that, you know, or being vengeful. It's just, you know, It's just not my nature.
Maybe I would have been more successful in this bad business that I'm in. And it is, it's product is great, but it's, you know, it just, it, it brings out a lot of bad things in people. And I just, I never wanted any part of that,
Jaclyn: but you've made it, you've stayed true to yourself and built this illustrious career, you know, honoring your grandma, your parents, the kindness within you lives.
Your children, your daughters. So I think that says something, you know, that you persevered. I think the hard thing, you know, there's a lot of industries that do this. And I think a lot's coming to bear, right? I think we're realizing now it's hard to stay hidden with that side of how we treat people, mistreat people.
But if you had to say for anyone, In that world, maybe who's listening, who might be struggling to know how to pick. Maybe it's like, what if I lose my career? Are they at risk if they aren't, you know, the mean side of things? What would your wisdom be of trying to do right and choose kindness?
David: You know, I'm not sure it's wisdom.
I can only say what my own experiences are. And that is that life is just so much better all around. If you're a kind person, you know, you don't want to be walked on. You don't want to be taken advantage of. You need to be strong, but just Be thoughtful to other people to the, starting with the people that are in your life, in your home, your animals.
Um, but you know, when you, when you go to a market and there's, there's someone there that might have a lot less than you do and you're in your basket, but that person go first. I, I just don't understand why it's so hard. And it's such a good feeling to, to be a nice, a nice person.
Jaclyn: What has been for you? The highlight of your career, like the thing you're going to take that you just are most proud of, most grateful for. What would that be?
David: I think there, there, there are so many things for me that, that I feel thankful for. And you know, when, when I was in film school, I never finished a college by the way, um, I was lucky enough to go, um, My mom and I sent my portfolio off to Jim Henson and Jim called and sent me a ticket.
I went to New York and he said, I'd like you to start working with me. And I did. I left the scholarship to film school and, um, and was fortunate enough to go and do work with, with Jim. Um, that, you know, that's something that has always been, again, an incredibly kind person. So kind, so thoughtful, and just acted like he had been doing this a year longer than I had.
And, you know, he'd been so successful. And he introduced me to Hallmark and Hallmark became my partner. This is when I'm very early 20s. Um, and, uh, I really hadn't done any, yeah, I hadn't done any movies and I'd created a world. And Jim said this for I showed Jim just thinking maybe Henson would want it.
He said, it's a little soft for us, but Hallmark was just here and they were looking for something like this. And he said, you want me to call for you? That's the kind of person he was, you know, this multi Emmy winning, just this visionary. And, um, he called and cleared the way for me to go to Kansas city, to present this little world called rose petal place to them.
And rose petal place became, uh, thousands of licensed items and television specials and, uh, publishing. And, uh, my mom worked with us and Liz ran everything. Uh, that with other artists doing my my drawings and we were in the Macy's Day Parade. It was, you know, just to be in your early 20s for all these things to happen.
And and that's what brought me. I'm kind of all over the place here, but that what's brought me to Steven Spielberg's attention because the woman that really ran his company, a very brilliant woman in Kathy Kennedy, who now runs George Lucas's company. Um, when George retired, She read this article that said shy young daydreamer turns his dreams into reality and just wanted to meet me and I had no idea what Kathy Kennedy was.
She came and saw an American tale and she said, can I use your phone? Because in 1984, July 3rd, 1984, there were not cell phones and she then, uh, called Stephen. And. I don't know what Stephen said, but she said, you need to see this kid's work like now. And she got off the phone and said, Stephen's having a 4th of July party tomorrow.
Why don't you come with your wife? We rented a van. We put a big steamer trunk that said ship to America on the front of it. And when you open the steamer trunk and American flag came out and I had Neil diamonds, they're coming to America, kind of cheesy, but maybe right for the time. And I proceeded to present to Stephen.
This world and he got on the ground with me and by the way I'm looking at you right now, but if you're Steven, just about three or four feet in back of you is Lizzie sitting on the couch and Steven gets down on the ground. He's looking at everything and he looks at me and he says, what is more exciting than even what I see before me is what you still have up there.
And as you mature in this business. How it will come out. Let's make a movie, Jaclyn. It has never been as easy as that moment. And I look over Stephen's shoulder, just kind of glancing like Liz. Did you hear this? And I'm, I'm mortified to see Liz just weeping and trying to keep it in because she's so proud.
And to see, you know, 1984 Spielberg, because, you know, E. T. had happened, Raiders had happened, close, close encounters, and it changed my life. That changed my life. I've been really fortunate with people that have just been kind to me and, you know, and maybe recognizing, uh, A shy, quiet guy that, um, that created things that they thought had potential, whether it was Hallmark Steven or Jim Henson or, or Neil.
Jaclyn: Wow. Thank you. I'm covering goosebumps. That's amazing. Just so incredible. Oh my goodness. Okay. I love it. Well, we, I could like talk all day to you. We're going to start winding down and go into our next bit where we do a little round robin of questions. Are you ready? We're going to pivot over to our questions.
So, um, describe kindness in one word.
David: Liz, my wife. Um, I, I mean, that's just, you know, I, I mean, if I had to, yeah, I never thought, you know, if I had to describe it one way, but that's just what popped into my head.
Jaclyn: Yes. It's beautiful. We love you, Liz. Um, if you could get everyone around the world to do one kind act right now, what would it be?
David: I think to understand, try to understand each other, understand that there are different people in this world with different religions, with different colors. And that we should really just kind of go back to the very basic teachings of, of the Bible of, of acceptance and not judge people by sexuality or, or by anything.
I mean, we're, we're all here on whether someone believes in God or doesn't, I happen to, but this is more than one word. I'm sorry.
Jaclyn: It's okay. I love it. Yeah.
David: Um, I, yeah, I would, I would just say that, um, you know, from the beginning of time we're taught to accept other people. And yet. We look the other way, and there's, there's so much, there's so many bad things going on in this country right now, and this country is so divided, and it's, it's, it's very upsetting.
It's upsetting to have grandchildren and, and see this, them in this world and, and worry what's going to happen when we're not here to protect them. They have great parents, but. You know, we, we just feel such responsibility to our family and it's something that we talk about a lot and we just don't understand why people just aren't more accepting and just kind of the cruel tone of making fun of people and calling people names and it's just.
What does it buy you? It just Mm-Hmm. it, it seems to be part of a, a, an awful lot of, of humanity to Mm-Hmm. to, uh, people to behave like this. But it's, it's so counter to, to what we're taught as, as children, if we have the right parents. Of course.
Jaclyn: Yeah.
David: Or what you're taught in Sunday school and, you know, you just have to look in the mirror and just say, have, have I been thoughtful to other people today that might be different than I am?
Jaclyn: Love that. Thank you.
David: I'm not great at one words.
Jaclyn: No, it's okay. Cause that one technically was more open ended.
David: It was, it was, um, yeah, it was, uh, That's my technicality. That's my loophole there.
Jaclyn: Bigger loophole. Um, if kindness were a song, what song would it be?
David: I really love, um, uh, Pharrell Williams, um, uh, happy.
Jaclyn: Yes. We haven't had anyone do that one. That's a great one.
David: It is. I mean, what a talent. And it's just, it's so happy. It just, I don't know, it just makes me feel like I'm 10 years old and it's Friday afternoon and there's no school and I can go climb trees and be with my friends and, uh, and draw pictures without getting in trouble from teachers.
Jaclyn: Love it. Okay. I don't normally ask this one, but if kindness were a movie, what movie would it be?
David: It probably is self serving if I said one of mine, but I just looked up and I saw, and I didn't create this. So maybe, so maybe this is another loophole I'm going to use here, a technicality of AE and, uh, and Margaret Rae created, which was Curious George.
We're actually doing that as a live action film. Um, next year. Um, but we did an animated Curious George. Um, we bought the rights to Curious George with my partner number about 30 years ago, and we've been doing, uh, we did. It was on forever on PBS, then it moved to Hulu, and now it's on Peacock, I think. Um, but we've done about 400 episodes.
But they're all about just, there might be some educational elements in there, but it's just, there's such kindness that is weaved through those stories that these people created, and that's why it was so important for me to try to get the rights to Curious George. Because it just it spoke to me. I related to George.
I just, um, you know, I guess I've always been a curious little monkey myself.
Jaclyn: I love it. I love it. My younger son's favorite sweater is an old, old, old, I don't know what year, but like a really old vintage curious George hoodie. It's got like a little I mean, it's got to be like 30 years old, but it was like Uh, founded a thrift store by my sister and, uh, he's obsessed with it.
We love curious George in this house. So that's a great one.
David: Oh, good.
Jaclyn: Um, and what book are you reading or listening to on audio right now?
David: I'm actually reading a children's book that has won a lot of awards. Freddy and the Family Curse. It's written by a really wonderful Filipino author who's a lawyer, but she thought she would try her hand at a book, and this book got a publisher, and then it's won all these awards.
About a kid, because in that culture, apparently, as I think in so many different cultures, especially from the ancestors and the elders, there's just kind of some superstitions that creep in. And in this, Everything goes wrong for this kid. And he's positive. There's a curse on his family and he tries to break this curse.
It's a very sweet book, huh. On the more adult side of things, I'm actually reading a, a, a, um, uh, a book on the Third Reich. And, uh, which is a very heavy tale.
How it came to be and what were the elements of economics and such in Germany that brought, um, a very cruel dictator to power.
And, uh, and what was used to, uh, accomplish his means. So two very, very different tales.
Jaclyn: Yes. I think that's a theme for you.
David: Yes.
Outro: Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of the why kindness podcast to learn more about everything you heard today from our wonderful guests. Definitely check out our show notes. We hope you're leaving this episode inspired and reminded that every kind act truly does make a difference.
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